4 ms·

Caltech professor claims Israeli spy infiltrated JPL

86 points by tacon 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- colordrops 12y ago
  This story is no better or worse than most of the stories on Hacker News. Take your concern trolling elsewhere.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- DanBC 12y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
tacon 12y ago
“JPL is the cornerstone of Caltech’s financial security,” Stormer said. “It makes them one of the foremost research institutions in the world. Without it, Caltech is just a backwater institution with very bright people. They could not get the people here that they have without the access to the research facilities at JPL. It is what makes Caltech Caltech.” I don't know about the merits of the case, but this kind of wild statement is embarrassing. JPL is lucky to have Caltech close at hand, not the other way around.
- mturmon 12y ago
  It's a symbiotic relationship. Her lawyer's statement is crazy, but there is a nugget of fact there. JPL is much larger than Caltech, both in terms of budget and personnel. (http://www.caltech.edu/content/glance http://www.caltech.edu/content/glance). I assume that is what his statement is getting at.
  - 001sky 12y ago
    Employees (1) JPL: 5,000 Caltech: 3,900 Budget JPL: $1.5 billion Campus: $580 million
- mattfishburn 12y ago
  JPL's budget is about three times that of non-JPL CalTech[1], $1.5B vs $580M. The "cornerstone" remark is accurate from a financial point of view. [1] http://www.caltech.edu/content/glance http://www.caltech.edu/content/glance
salimmadjd 12y ago
This is not surprising. Israel is the number-one allied country spying in America [1] The problem is that with so many Israeli supporters in either of the administration [2] as well as in the FBI and on many campuses, any allegation of spying by whistleblowers is reacted by extreme retaliations. This is why we don't hear about it more often. This is not a new issue [3] from Pollard [4] to Rosen [5], recently [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/israeli-spying-on-us-has-reached-terrifying-levels-2014-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/israeli-spying-on-us-has-reac... [2] http://www.thenation.com/blog/spy-story-harman-saban-and-aipac http://www.thenation.com/blog/spy-story-harman-saban-and-aip... [3] http://archive.lewrockwell.com/ips/lobe122.html http://archive.lewrockwell.com/ips/lobe122.html [4] http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2014/0401/Who-is-Jonathan-Pollard-and-why-is-his-spy-case-inflammatory-video http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2014/0401/Who-is-Jon... [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Franklin,_Rosen,_and_Weissman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Franklin,_Rose... edited: typo
- 001sky 12y ago
  Savoire/faire is every/where! http://www.businessinsider.com/nazi-scientists-space-program-2014-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/nazi-scientists-space-program...
- ChrisGaudreau 12y ago
  It is amazing just how much Israel spies on America, and how nobody knows about it. If you dare to say it publicly then your reputation and career are destroyed, and you are an antisemitic terrorist sympathizer, if not also a terrorist.
  - tylerkahn 12y ago
    I guess that makes you a very brave person for speaking out publicly.
    - ivanca 12y ago
      This kind of snarkiness is one of the most damaging things there are. Its way more common in reddit and imgur. The only break there is in such communities for funny/cat pics are things like bansky paints but usually the most voted comment says something along the lines: "so edgy", "I think there is a metaphor here guys", or a snowden pic with comments like " you are such revolutionary, can I be your friend " and stupidities of the sort. The NSA has to do nothing, the public will render spying as serious as jaywalking by itself.
mturmon 12y ago
The legal filing has (much) more -- http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2014-11-14-Troian-v.-Caltech-Complaint.pdf http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/wp-content/uploads/201... I found one surprising thing in the complaint. If a JPL supervisor was told about an ITAR violation, there would be an immediate investigation with 100% certainty. It would be a matter of hours, not months as is alleged. There are two workplace rule violations you can go to jail for, ITAR and time card fraud -- these are criminal, not civil, matters. So the complaint is making extremely serious accusations.
confluence 12y ago
Man you should've seen the stuff the Israeli's pulled back in the 1980s. > Speculation about Milchan's involvement in arms dealing and intelligence activities was sparked after the indictment in 1985 of Dr. Richard Kelly Smyth, an aerospace executive and scientist who had made illegal shipments of Krytrons (nuclear triggers) through one of Milchan's companies. ... > "at least through the mid-1980s [Milchan] was a full-fledged operative for Israel’s top-secret intelligence agency, Lakam. His activities included "buying components to build and maintain Israel’s nuclear arsenal" and supervising "government-backed accounts and front companies that financed the special needs of the entirety of Israel’s intelligence operations outside the country.". Interviewed regarding Milchan's intelligence activities, Israeli President Shimon Peres stated: "Arnon is a special man. It was I who recruited him.... When I was at the Ministry of Defense, Arnon was involved in numerous defense-related procurement activities and intelligence operations. His strength is in making connections at the highest levels.... His activities gave us a huge advantage, strategically, diplomatically and technologically." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnon_Milchan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnon_Milchan He's a multi-billionaire Hollywood producer nowadays (Argo, Fight Club, etc.) Ah the windfalls of state backing.
gaoshan 12y ago
My sister works for one of the intelligence agencies and says that the two biggest threats, from an intel perspective, are China and Israel.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- WorldWideWayne 12y ago
  You should ask her what she thinks about the possibility that China is an asset controlled by a higher power, considering the fact that Mao Zedong was a Yale man and that ever since he was installed, every US ambassador to China has been a Skull and Bones member - https://www.google.com/search?q=mao+zedong+yale+school+of+divinity https://www.google.com/search?q=mao+zedong+yale+school+of+di...
  - gaoshan 12y ago
    No point in asking her that as she is mentally stable.
    - WorldWideWayne 12y ago
      So, it's a proven fact that the Yale School of Divinity exists. It's proven that Mao Zedong was a student there. It's proven that Skull and Bones exists and it's proven that Mao was a member and that each ambassador to China since Mao has also been a member. Did you not read anything about the subject before commenting? Ever heard of the Opium Wars? You act as if it's unthinkable that a small group of powerful people could take control of an entire nation and cause so much trouble. What point did you disagree on? Or, were you just going to stick with your feeble ad-hominem attack on me?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
flyinglizard 12y ago
I doubt Israel would use an actual Israeli for espionage.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
lisper 12y ago
As someone who used to work at JPL I find this story hard to swallow. It's not that it's unlikely that an Israeli spy could get a job at JPL. That I don't doubt. (In fact, I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened.) What I find doubtful is that anyone could find out about it. Information security at JPL is not very tight. It's not the NSA. You'd have to be the world's most incompetent spy to let yourself be discovered by a colleague at JPL.
GabrielF00 12y ago
It's worth pointing out that this is one person's allegation and that it is being made in the context of a retaliation complaint against an employer. Some of what is in the complaint doesn't make a lot of sense, for instance, if someone was actively engaged in espionage, why would they post restricted technical information to a public website 65 times?
- Pinckney 12y ago
  The allegation that Dr. Gat was a spy seems to be sensationalism on the part of the Pasadena Star. One doesn't need to be a spy to violate ITAR. The most substantial allegations against Dr. Gat are that he shared data with his adviser. It's quite easy to imagine a young researcher viewing ITAR as a dumb American law which inhibits collaboration, and deciding to continue sharing preprints and collaborating with colleagues abroad as though he were still in Israel. And why not? He doesn't seem to have been working on a project with obvious military potential, and is from an allied country. ITAR prosecutions against professors are extremely rare.
edwinkite 12y ago
The article quotes Prof. Troian as saying, "JPL acted honorably throughout. They did the right thing and filed the right report. That part of the system worked well. ... My complaint is strictly with Caltech." There's tension between the openness that a research university (Caltech) needs, and the secure handling of information that a lab doing some classified research (JPL) requires. This tension exploded in 1952, when Caltech took government money for PROJECT VISTA. After that, Caltech decided that having faculty working on things they couldn't talk about was antithetical to the purpose of a research university [1]. Today, Caltech says [2]: "The Caltech Way: Caltech policy does not allow the acceptance of grants or contracts supporting the conduct of classified research or other classified projects on campus. Exceptions to this restriction may be considered by the President of Caltech in times of national emergency or critical need upon an urgent request of the government." ("Standards of Conduct for Research on Campus," Chapter 1, Section 1.1). At JPL, there has always been some classified research. In the 1980s, JPL almost become a weapons lab (it did not) [3]. Even if Dr. Gat's electrospray work wasn't classified, one can imagine how different attitudes to classified research feed over to different attitudes to ITAR violations. I'm a former Caltech postdoc and a research associate at JPL. I know neither Gat nor Troian. [1] http://www.patrickmccray.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2004-McCray-Vista-Paper.pdf http://www.patrickmccray.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2... [2] http://researchadministration.caltech.edu/theguide/tableofcontents/ch1#1.1 http://researchadministration.caltech.edu/theguide/tableofco... [3] "Into the Black": http://www.amazon.com/Into-Black-American-Program-1976-2004/dp/0300184190 http://www.amazon.com/Into-Black-American-Program-1976-2004/...
- colordrops 12y ago
  I haven't figured out your conclusion. I think you are giving credit to Caltech for supporting Dr. Gat's "openness" with Israel? Does that excuse Dr. Gat hacking into Dr. Troian's computer, or the Caltech administration's apparently dishonest and sinister behavior towards Dr. Troian?

86 points by tacon 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

colordrops 12y ago
This story is no better or worse than most of the stories on Hacker News. Take your concern trolling elsewhere.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
DanBC 12y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

tacon 12y ago

“JPL is the cornerstone of Caltech’s financial security,” Stormer said. “It makes them one of the foremost research institutions in the world. Without it, Caltech is just a backwater institution with very bright people. They could not get the people here that they have without the access to the research facilities at JPL. It is what makes Caltech Caltech.” I don't know about the merits of the case, but this kind of wild statement is embarrassing. JPL is lucky to have Caltech close at hand, not the other way around.

mturmon 12y ago
It's a symbiotic relationship. Her lawyer's statement is crazy, but there is a nugget of fact there. JPL is much larger than Caltech, both in terms of budget and personnel. (http://www.caltech.edu/content/glance http://www.caltech.edu/content/glance). I assume that is what his statement is getting at.
- 001sky 12y ago
  Employees (1) JPL: 5,000 Caltech: 3,900 Budget JPL: $1.5 billion Campus: $580 million
mattfishburn 12y ago
JPL's budget is about three times that of non-JPL CalTech[1], $1.5B vs $580M. The "cornerstone" remark is accurate from a financial point of view. [1] http://www.caltech.edu/content/glance http://www.caltech.edu/content/glance

salimmadjd 12y ago

This is not surprising. Israel is the number-one allied country spying in America [1] The problem is that with so many Israeli supporters in either of the administration [2] as well as in the FBI and on many campuses, any allegation of spying by whistleblowers is reacted by extreme retaliations. This is why we don't hear about it more often. This is not a new issue [3] from Pollard [4] to Rosen [5], recently [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/israeli-spying-on-us-has-reached-terrifying-levels-2014-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/israeli-spying-on-us-has-reac... [2] http://www.thenation.com/blog/spy-story-harman-saban-and-aipac http://www.thenation.com/blog/spy-story-harman-saban-and-aip... [3] http://archive.lewrockwell.com/ips/lobe122.html http://archive.lewrockwell.com/ips/lobe122.html [4] http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2014/0401/Who-is-Jonathan-Pollard-and-why-is-his-spy-case-inflammatory-video http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2014/0401/Who-is-Jon... [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Franklin,_Rosen,_and_Weissman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Franklin,_Rose... edited: typo

001sky 12y ago
Savoire/faire is every/where! http://www.businessinsider.com/nazi-scientists-space-program-2014-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/nazi-scientists-space-program...
ChrisGaudreau 12y ago
It is amazing just how much Israel spies on America, and how nobody knows about it. If you dare to say it publicly then your reputation and career are destroyed, and you are an antisemitic terrorist sympathizer, if not also a terrorist.
- tylerkahn 12y ago
  I guess that makes you a very brave person for speaking out publicly.
  - ivanca 12y ago
    This kind of snarkiness is one of the most damaging things there are. Its way more common in reddit and imgur. The only break there is in such communities for funny/cat pics are things like bansky paints but usually the most voted comment says something along the lines: "so edgy", "I think there is a metaphor here guys", or a snowden pic with comments like " you are such revolutionary, can I be your friend " and stupidities of the sort. The NSA has to do nothing, the public will render spying as serious as jaywalking by itself.

mturmon 12y ago

The legal filing has (much) more -- http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2014-11-14-Troian-v.-Caltech-Complaint.pdf http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/wp-content/uploads/201... I found one surprising thing in the complaint. If a JPL supervisor was told about an ITAR violation, there would be an immediate investigation with 100% certainty. It would be a matter of hours, not months as is alleged. There are two workplace rule violations you can go to jail for, ITAR and time card fraud -- these are criminal, not civil, matters. So the complaint is making extremely serious accusations.

confluence 12y ago

Man you should've seen the stuff the Israeli's pulled back in the 1980s. > Speculation about Milchan's involvement in arms dealing and intelligence activities was sparked after the indictment in 1985 of Dr. Richard Kelly Smyth, an aerospace executive and scientist who had made illegal shipments of Krytrons (nuclear triggers) through one of Milchan's companies. ... > "at least through the mid-1980s [Milchan] was a full-fledged operative for Israel’s top-secret intelligence agency, Lakam. His activities included "buying components to build and maintain Israel’s nuclear arsenal" and supervising "government-backed accounts and front companies that financed the special needs of the entirety of Israel’s intelligence operations outside the country.". Interviewed regarding Milchan's intelligence activities, Israeli President Shimon Peres stated: "Arnon is a special man. It was I who recruited him.... When I was at the Ministry of Defense, Arnon was involved in numerous defense-related procurement activities and intelligence operations. His strength is in making connections at the highest levels.... His activities gave us a huge advantage, strategically, diplomatically and technologically." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnon_Milchan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnon_Milchan He's a multi-billionaire Hollywood producer nowadays (Argo, Fight Club, etc.) Ah the windfalls of state backing.

gaoshan 12y ago

My sister works for one of the intelligence agencies and says that the two biggest threats, from an intel perspective, are China and Israel.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
WorldWideWayne 12y ago
You should ask her what she thinks about the possibility that China is an asset controlled by a higher power, considering the fact that Mao Zedong was a Yale man and that ever since he was installed, every US ambassador to China has been a Skull and Bones member - https://www.google.com/search?q=mao+zedong+yale+school+of+divinity https://www.google.com/search?q=mao+zedong+yale+school+of+di...
- gaoshan 12y ago
  No point in asking her that as she is mentally stable.
  - WorldWideWayne 12y ago
    So, it's a proven fact that the Yale School of Divinity exists. It's proven that Mao Zedong was a student there. It's proven that Skull and Bones exists and it's proven that Mao was a member and that each ambassador to China since Mao has also been a member. Did you not read anything about the subject before commenting? Ever heard of the Opium Wars? You act as if it's unthinkable that a small group of powerful people could take control of an entire nation and cause so much trouble. What point did you disagree on? Or, were you just going to stick with your feeble ad-hominem attack on me?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

flyinglizard 12y ago

I doubt Israel would use an actual Israeli for espionage.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

lisper 12y ago

As someone who used to work at JPL I find this story hard to swallow. It's not that it's unlikely that an Israeli spy could get a job at JPL. That I don't doubt. (In fact, I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened.) What I find doubtful is that anyone could find out about it. Information security at JPL is not very tight. It's not the NSA. You'd have to be the world's most incompetent spy to let yourself be discovered by a colleague at JPL.

GabrielF00 12y ago

It's worth pointing out that this is one person's allegation and that it is being made in the context of a retaliation complaint against an employer. Some of what is in the complaint doesn't make a lot of sense, for instance, if someone was actively engaged in espionage, why would they post restricted technical information to a public website 65 times?

Pinckney 12y ago
The allegation that Dr. Gat was a spy seems to be sensationalism on the part of the Pasadena Star. One doesn't need to be a spy to violate ITAR. The most substantial allegations against Dr. Gat are that he shared data with his adviser. It's quite easy to imagine a young researcher viewing ITAR as a dumb American law which inhibits collaboration, and deciding to continue sharing preprints and collaborating with colleagues abroad as though he were still in Israel. And why not? He doesn't seem to have been working on a project with obvious military potential, and is from an allied country. ITAR prosecutions against professors are extremely rare.

edwinkite 12y ago

The article quotes Prof. Troian as saying, "JPL acted honorably throughout. They did the right thing and filed the right report. That part of the system worked well. ... My complaint is strictly with Caltech." There's tension between the openness that a research university (Caltech) needs, and the secure handling of information that a lab doing some classified research (JPL) requires. This tension exploded in 1952, when Caltech took government money for PROJECT VISTA. After that, Caltech decided that having faculty working on things they couldn't talk about was antithetical to the purpose of a research university [1]. Today, Caltech says [2]: "The Caltech Way: Caltech policy does not allow the acceptance of grants or contracts supporting the conduct of classified research or other classified projects on campus. Exceptions to this restriction may be considered by the President of Caltech in times of national emergency or critical need upon an urgent request of the government." ("Standards of Conduct for Research on Campus," Chapter 1, Section 1.1). At JPL, there has always been some classified research. In the 1980s, JPL almost become a weapons lab (it did not) [3]. Even if Dr. Gat's electrospray work wasn't classified, one can imagine how different attitudes to classified research feed over to different attitudes to ITAR violations. I'm a former Caltech postdoc and a research associate at JPL. I know neither Gat nor Troian. [1] http://www.patrickmccray.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2004-McCray-Vista-Paper.pdf http://www.patrickmccray.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2... [2] http://researchadministration.caltech.edu/theguide/tableofcontents/ch1#1.1 http://researchadministration.caltech.edu/theguide/tableofco... [3] "Into the Black": http://www.amazon.com/Into-Black-American-Program-1976-2004/dp/0300184190 http://www.amazon.com/Into-Black-American-Program-1976-2004/...

colordrops 12y ago
I haven't figured out your conclusion. I think you are giving credit to Caltech for supporting Dr. Gat's "openness" with Israel? Does that excuse Dr. Gat hacking into Dr. Troian's computer, or the Caltech administration's apparently dishonest and sinister behavior towards Dr. Troian?