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Reckless and suicidal as in annexing a part of a European country and virtually openly invading another part by force while simultaneously stepping up military

by mtrimpe 12y ago

Reckless and suicidal as in annexing a part of a European country and virtually openly invading another part by force while simultaneously stepping up military intimidation against NATO allies across the board? Apparently so.

sologoub 12y ago
Issue with Crimea is so much more complicated than that. While the inclusion of it as part of Ukraine in 1991 is not in dispute, the land was only "moved" into the Ukrainian SSR in 1954. At the time, it was about equivalent to transferring jurisdiction between one US county to another. A US state to state transfer would not be similar, as USSR laws were very centralized and there wasn't really that much difference between the RSFSR (Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic) and Ukrainian SSR. (Soviets sure loved long names and acronyms!) From the wikipedia article: "In 1954, it was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union." [1] Demographics are also complicated, with 2001 census (latest wikipedia article cites) showing 58% of population identifying themselves as Russian, so it is at least plausible that the majority of the population would prefer Russia as the parent state over Ukraine. [2] The situation in "Donbas" is just downright deplorable. Both sides are not in the clear as to how this conflict came about and how it is unfolding. For proof, take a look at the Human Rights Watch report on use of cluster munitions: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cl.... Personally, I would probably not have such a problem with either side using these, had they been used exclusively against military groups outside of populated areas, or at least in sparsely populated areas, but they are being fired at cities. Firing one of these into a city is inhumane regardless of who occupies the city. There are still civilians that probably did not have a chance to run away, usually the elderly and people with children. These munitions hurt them the most. For what a cluster munition is, read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition. In the end, the more we do finger pointing at a large group, the less progress we will make towards a lasting peace. Not all Russians are war-hungry, not all Ukrainians think Bendera is a hero, etc. etc. etc. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics
- mtrimpe 12y ago
  I am deeply aware of the minutiae of the conflict. Crimea's status was indeed complex which is why independence with a strong Russian bent would have been acceptable by all international players. In 2014 there is no excuse though for straight-up military annexation under false pretences without the slightest hint of respect for international law. In the end the populist appeal of healing the wound of a 'lost Crimea,' as you so aptly demonstrate, won over from respecting international norms, something which can aptly be called reckless and suicidal just by itself. Concerning the Donbass all of the world except for one country is remarkably clear on how the conflict came about. Just like happened in Georgia and Moldavia, Russian-backed forces were sent in to inflame moderate ethnic tensions and use unmarked mercenaries supported by surplus Russian military material to turn the conflict violent and eventually create a frozen conflict allowing Russia to prevent NATO expansion and exert geopolitical control over the region. In Ukraine that almost worked again except that MH17 drew international attention at an inopportune time giving Ukraine the time to mobilise a counter-attack eventually causing the Russian regular army to have to be sent in unmarked to keep the conflict going which led the global community to escalate its economic warfare to the point where the intent became to cripple the Russian economy to the point of unsustainability... which sounds even more reckless and suicidal to me. Also notice that nowhere do you hear me arguing it's okay for Ukrainian forces to fire shells at Russian positions which strategically locate themselves next to urban targets. The conflict is intensely brutal with both sides indiscriminately firing shells and rockets into civilian areas and well documented evidence of even Russian forces sending false-flag shells into their own civilian areas and even more evidence of the Ukrainian army using that as a permanent excuse for inappropriate and overreaching bombing... And as far as finger pointing goes; I'm pointing at the Russian government. I have however also been deeply shocked by the degree to which the Russian population considers annexation of a region an OK-ish thing and directly causing the loss of several thousands of lives through escalating a conflict by military intervention a 'complex issue.'
  - sologoub 12y ago
    Wow, and I thought I had a bias for having relatives close to the conflict... A citation or two or three would be nice on all of this, as I do not share many of your assumptions. That said, without being there first hand, I don't think one could really know the truth. Not sure if you read Russian, but here's more "entertainment" on the subject of MH17: http://lenta.ru/news/2014/11/14/boeing/ http://lenta.ru/news/2014/11/14/boeing/. On the subject of MH17, it's really appalling how the media and people discussing it seem to focus on the Ukrainian conflict and not on the loss of life here itself or even on the people working to fight AIDS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Passengers_and_crew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Pas....

by mtrimpe 12y ago

sologoub 12y ago

Issue with Crimea is so much more complicated than that. While the inclusion of it as part of Ukraine in 1991 is not in dispute, the land was only "moved" into the Ukrainian SSR in 1954. At the time, it was about equivalent to transferring jurisdiction between one US county to another. A US state to state transfer would not be similar, as USSR laws were very centralized and there wasn't really that much difference between the RSFSR (Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic) and Ukrainian SSR. (Soviets sure loved long names and acronyms!) From the wikipedia article: "In 1954, it was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union." [1] Demographics are also complicated, with 2001 census (latest wikipedia article cites) showing 58% of population identifying themselves as Russian, so it is at least plausible that the majority of the population would prefer Russia as the parent state over Ukraine. [2] The situation in "Donbas" is just downright deplorable. Both sides are not in the clear as to how this conflict came about and how it is unfolding. For proof, take a look at the Human Rights Watch report on use of cluster munitions: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cl.... Personally, I would probably not have such a problem with either side using these, had they been used exclusively against military groups outside of populated areas, or at least in sparsely populated areas, but they are being fired at cities. Firing one of these into a city is inhumane regardless of who occupies the city. There are still civilians that probably did not have a chance to run away, usually the elderly and people with children. These munitions hurt them the most. For what a cluster munition is, read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition. In the end, the more we do finger pointing at a large group, the less progress we will make towards a lasting peace. Not all Russians are war-hungry, not all Ukrainians think Bendera is a hero, etc. etc. etc. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics

mtrimpe 12y ago
I am deeply aware of the minutiae of the conflict. Crimea's status was indeed complex which is why independence with a strong Russian bent would have been acceptable by all international players. In 2014 there is no excuse though for straight-up military annexation under false pretences without the slightest hint of respect for international law. In the end the populist appeal of healing the wound of a 'lost Crimea,' as you so aptly demonstrate, won over from respecting international norms, something which can aptly be called reckless and suicidal just by itself. Concerning the Donbass all of the world except for one country is remarkably clear on how the conflict came about. Just like happened in Georgia and Moldavia, Russian-backed forces were sent in to inflame moderate ethnic tensions and use unmarked mercenaries supported by surplus Russian military material to turn the conflict violent and eventually create a frozen conflict allowing Russia to prevent NATO expansion and exert geopolitical control over the region. In Ukraine that almost worked again except that MH17 drew international attention at an inopportune time giving Ukraine the time to mobilise a counter-attack eventually causing the Russian regular army to have to be sent in unmarked to keep the conflict going which led the global community to escalate its economic warfare to the point where the intent became to cripple the Russian economy to the point of unsustainability... which sounds even more reckless and suicidal to me. Also notice that nowhere do you hear me arguing it's okay for Ukrainian forces to fire shells at Russian positions which strategically locate themselves next to urban targets. The conflict is intensely brutal with both sides indiscriminately firing shells and rockets into civilian areas and well documented evidence of even Russian forces sending false-flag shells into their own civilian areas and even more evidence of the Ukrainian army using that as a permanent excuse for inappropriate and overreaching bombing... And as far as finger pointing goes; I'm pointing at the Russian government. I have however also been deeply shocked by the degree to which the Russian population considers annexation of a region an OK-ish thing and directly causing the loss of several thousands of lives through escalating a conflict by military intervention a 'complex issue.'
- sologoub 12y ago
  Wow, and I thought I had a bias for having relatives close to the conflict... A citation or two or three would be nice on all of this, as I do not share many of your assumptions. That said, without being there first hand, I don't think one could really know the truth. Not sure if you read Russian, but here's more "entertainment" on the subject of MH17: http://lenta.ru/news/2014/11/14/boeing/ http://lenta.ru/news/2014/11/14/boeing/. On the subject of MH17, it's really appalling how the media and people discussing it seem to focus on the Ukrainian conflict and not on the loss of life here itself or even on the people working to fight AIDS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Passengers_and_crew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17#Pas....