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Before people start defending Russia too much and proclaiming NATO to be the aggressors, have a look at http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/world/russia-

by ptr 12y ago

Before people start defending Russia too much and proclaiming NATO to be the aggressors, have a look at http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/world/russia-west/?hpt=hp_c1 http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/world/russia-west... (and that's just the last 8 months, doesn't include Russia's target practicing on Stockholm with nukes for example) There's a big propaganda war going on in Europe right now, against NATO, the West, and western ideas. Free media in Russia are being closed down. Not good signs. The former USSR Baltic states are afraid of getting invaded, like eastern Ukraine, but Sweden is probably "safe" from a direct invasion. Edit: also it might be good to know that the Armed Forces are very careful not to point to any specific country (they're clearly stating the facts), but we're already getting disinformation from Russian media.

mlvljr 12y ago
"But take a look at what CNN says before proclaiming anything about NATO aggressiveness!" okay, counsel :)
netcan 12y ago
"The Left." is in a weird place. Objection within NATO countries to Afghanistan and Iraq (coalition, NATO, whatever) has led to many leftists seeing their job as critics of their own country. A part of that is trying to cut through the propaganda where your country is always innocent and other other guys are always malevolent. Getting the US/Coalition to accept culpability for its role in the collapse of Iraq. Etc. A lot of those things are positive. Internal criticism is extremely important. But, there is a danger of going down an enemy-of-my-enemy route and turning yourself into a dumb reflection of the thing you are objecting to. In the UK, the parody hard left produced MPs actively supporting the Syrian Baathist party up until recently. Russia does feel threatened by NATO. They have for a while. But mores, Russia's objection to NATO is a nationalistic ego thing, and shouldn't be excused. Most of the "aggression" in Eastern Europe, of countries joining NATO and encouraging NATO presence in their territory is fear based. It's based on a terrible experience of Russian dominance a generation ago and a fear of Russian invasion now. Russia's neighbors are afraid of them. They are afraid of invasion, interference, stuff like that. They want NATO presence because they are afraid of Russia. At the same time the baseline political rhetoric in Russia is belligerent, democratic rights like free press are diminishing and human rights are receding.
foobarqux 12y ago
You don't need to defend Russia to say that the CNN data is distorted to present a particular message. Most of these actions (flying in international airspace, military exercises) are routinely performed by NATO but never similarly criticized, or as this infographic shows, even mentioned.
- ptr 12y ago
  So how do you know that NATO is just as reckless if it's never mentioned? The point isn't that it happens, it's that it's been increasing a lot lately both in frequency and severity of each incident.
  - foobarqux 12y ago
    Facts that support a particular narrative are made prominent, those that run counter to it are diminished. Here are two quick examples of incidents that, using the same standards as the CNN infographic, would have been classified as "high risk". http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81320 http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81320 http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/02/us/us-spy-plane/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/02/us/us-spy-plane/index.html Finally, the rate of these incidents may have increased but I don't see any evidence of that in your link. Why do you say that they have?
    - ptr 12y ago
      Yes, the first link is actually in the CNN article and the second one is about China. What's your point? Also please note that NATO and the US are != Sweden. The article doesn't mention that the incidents have increased, you're right. It's a lot of incidents in a short time frame though. For some Swedish sources on the increased rate of Russian activity: http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/okad-rysk-militar-aktivitet-pa-ostersjon/ http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/okad-rysk-militar-aktivitet... http://wisemanswisdoms.blogspot.se/2011/11/okad-aktivitet-over-ostersjon.html http://wisemanswisdoms.blogspot.se/2011/11/okad-aktivitet-ov... According to http://wisemanswisdoms.blogspot.se/2014/07/lattande-av-incidentberedskapens-forlat.html http://wisemanswisdoms.blogspot.se/2014/07/lattande-av-incid... the QRF has taken off 50% more times this year than the previous. Which was the most intense year since the Cold War. Other than that you won't find much statistics on the activity of the Swedish Quick Reaction Force as it's not released to the public.
hugh4life 12y ago
The US routinely sends planes to the Sea of Okhotsk which is completely surrounded by Russian territory. The US and NATO probe Russia all the time... This picture the Swedes have released is quite honestly something I don't take a face value. "Free media in Russia are being closed down. " Not to minimize the problems of Russia's media environment, but the last NATO Secretary General Rasmussen had to shut down a Kurdish TV station in order for Turkey to support his nomination.
- tzs 12y ago
  > The US routinely sends planes to the Sea of Okhotsk which is completely surrounded by Russian territory It's not completely surrounded by Russian territory. Japan has ~200 miles of the coast of Hokkaido bordering the Sea of Okhotsk.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

by ptr 12y ago

mlvljr 12y ago

"But take a look at what CNN says before proclaiming anything about NATO aggressiveness!" okay, counsel :)

netcan 12y ago

"The Left." is in a weird place. Objection within NATO countries to Afghanistan and Iraq (coalition, NATO, whatever) has led to many leftists seeing their job as critics of their own country. A part of that is trying to cut through the propaganda where your country is always innocent and other other guys are always malevolent. Getting the US/Coalition to accept culpability for its role in the collapse of Iraq. Etc. A lot of those things are positive. Internal criticism is extremely important. But, there is a danger of going down an enemy-of-my-enemy route and turning yourself into a dumb reflection of the thing you are objecting to. In the UK, the parody hard left produced MPs actively supporting the Syrian Baathist party up until recently. Russia does feel threatened by NATO. They have for a while. But mores, Russia's objection to NATO is a nationalistic ego thing, and shouldn't be excused. Most of the "aggression" in Eastern Europe, of countries joining NATO and encouraging NATO presence in their territory is fear based. It's based on a terrible experience of Russian dominance a generation ago and a fear of Russian invasion now. Russia's neighbors are afraid of them. They are afraid of invasion, interference, stuff like that. They want NATO presence because they are afraid of Russia. At the same time the baseline political rhetoric in Russia is belligerent, democratic rights like free press are diminishing and human rights are receding.

foobarqux 12y ago

You don't need to defend Russia to say that the CNN data is distorted to present a particular message. Most of these actions (flying in international airspace, military exercises) are routinely performed by NATO but never similarly criticized, or as this infographic shows, even mentioned.

ptr 12y ago
So how do you know that NATO is just as reckless if it's never mentioned? The point isn't that it happens, it's that it's been increasing a lot lately both in frequency and severity of each incident.
- foobarqux 12y ago
  Facts that support a particular narrative are made prominent, those that run counter to it are diminished. Here are two quick examples of incidents that, using the same standards as the CNN infographic, would have been classified as "high risk". http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81320 http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81320 http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/02/us/us-spy-plane/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/02/us/us-spy-plane/index.html Finally, the rate of these incidents may have increased but I don't see any evidence of that in your link. Why do you say that they have?
  - ptr 12y ago
    Yes, the first link is actually in the CNN article and the second one is about China. What's your point? Also please note that NATO and the US are != Sweden. The article doesn't mention that the incidents have increased, you're right. It's a lot of incidents in a short time frame though. For some Swedish sources on the increased rate of Russian activity: http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/okad-rysk-militar-aktivitet-pa-ostersjon/ http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/okad-rysk-militar-aktivitet... http://wisemanswisdoms.blogspot.se/2011/11/okad-aktivitet-over-ostersjon.html http://wisemanswisdoms.blogspot.se/2011/11/okad-aktivitet-ov... According to http://wisemanswisdoms.blogspot.se/2014/07/lattande-av-incidentberedskapens-forlat.html http://wisemanswisdoms.blogspot.se/2014/07/lattande-av-incid... the QRF has taken off 50% more times this year than the previous. Which was the most intense year since the Cold War. Other than that you won't find much statistics on the activity of the Swedish Quick Reaction Force as it's not released to the public.

hugh4life 12y ago

The US routinely sends planes to the Sea of Okhotsk which is completely surrounded by Russian territory. The US and NATO probe Russia all the time... This picture the Swedes have released is quite honestly something I don't take a face value. "Free media in Russia are being closed down. " Not to minimize the problems of Russia's media environment, but the last NATO Secretary General Rasmussen had to shut down a Kurdish TV station in order for Turkey to support his nomination.

tzs 12y ago
> The US routinely sends planes to the Sea of Okhotsk which is completely surrounded by Russian territory It's not completely surrounded by Russian territory. Japan has ~200 miles of the coast of Hokkaido bordering the Sea of Okhotsk.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]