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Any system as large and complicated as this one will have failures. Our job is to learn from the past and try to prevent it from happening again in the future.

jafaku 12y ago
Even if you had a perfect corruption-proof government design... What can you do about it? You are not in charge, and have no way to influence the people in charge.
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  Even if you had a perfect corruption-proof government implementation, you still have humans composing that government, and therefore it won't be corruption-proof for long.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    I don't think a design could be said to be "corruption-proof" without taking into account the elements that compose it. That may or may not be most of a proof of the non-existence of "corruption-proof" government.
AnimalMuppet 12y ago
That's engineering for you. Examine the failure modes, and try to design the next system so it can't fail in any of the known ways. In fact, that's what the authors of the Constitution were trying to do...
- nraynaud 12y ago
  ... and the authors of quite a few international treaties and systems that the US refuses to submit to (the main one being Rome).
- krrrh 12y ago
  And they did an incredible job all things considered. It's worth noticing that even quite advanced countries like France unironically put numbers before the word "Republic" to keep track of which edition they are on. The longevity of the U.S. Constitution is simply unprecedented.
nraynaud 12y ago
Yeah, failures that cost hundreds of thousands lives. We're talking about the most weaponized country in the world, and one of the least shy to use its weapons. We are not talking about a movie maker delivering a boring scene who will try to do better in the next movie. We're talking about toppling foreign governments, invading countries, backing or installing dictatures, assassinating people, droning teenagers, dealing cocaine, torturing people, launching nuclear weapons. Doing it times and times over, never being shy about it, and never admitting any wrong. There is zero structure of improvement in the US government behavior. Those structure exists, for example the Geneva treaty, the Rome treaty which brings trial for war criminals, but the US government refuses any accountability. There is no downside to the erratic US behavior.
- lavamantis 12y ago
  I doubt change is going to come from external pressure or treaties (although those are good things). Change is going to come when a lot more people become aware of just how bad things have been going, and why. All of the atrocities you mentioned have been done to protect and expand the interests of the wealthy, and have been done in as much secrecy as possible. I have reason to hope that things CAN change and in fact, ARE changing. Look how rapidly gay marriage has gone from an impossibility to soon being the law of the land in an incredibly short amount of time. Pot legalization is happening at the same speed. The next great wave will be atheism. These things are happening because of increased communication and awareness due to our newfound interconnectivity. That is only going to increase. Soon it will be extremely hard to keep secrets at all, a condition that is essential to these atrocities continuing.
- slg 12y ago
  What country that has been considered a world power hasn't participated in the same level of "evil"? The whole "power corrupts" thing isn't an American problem it is a problem with human nature.
  - nitrogen 12y ago
    Why does a country need to be a singular "world power"?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Torgo 12y ago
Democracies don't have memory, they only have momentum.
glitchdout 12y ago
> Our job is to learn from the past and try to prevent it from happening again in the future. Doesn't seem to be working with Guantanamo. Or invading other countries.

jafaku 12y ago

Even if you had a perfect corruption-proof government design... What can you do about it? You are not in charge, and have no way to influence the people in charge.

AnimalMuppet 12y ago
Even if you had a perfect corruption-proof government implementation, you still have humans composing that government, and therefore it won't be corruption-proof for long.
- dllthomas 12y ago
  I don't think a design could be said to be "corruption-proof" without taking into account the elements that compose it. That may or may not be most of a proof of the non-existence of "corruption-proof" government.

AnimalMuppet 12y ago

That's engineering for you. Examine the failure modes, and try to design the next system so it can't fail in any of the known ways. In fact, that's what the authors of the Constitution were trying to do...

nraynaud 12y ago
... and the authors of quite a few international treaties and systems that the US refuses to submit to (the main one being Rome).
krrrh 12y ago
And they did an incredible job all things considered. It's worth noticing that even quite advanced countries like France unironically put numbers before the word "Republic" to keep track of which edition they are on. The longevity of the U.S. Constitution is simply unprecedented.

nraynaud 12y ago

Yeah, failures that cost hundreds of thousands lives. We're talking about the most weaponized country in the world, and one of the least shy to use its weapons. We are not talking about a movie maker delivering a boring scene who will try to do better in the next movie. We're talking about toppling foreign governments, invading countries, backing or installing dictatures, assassinating people, droning teenagers, dealing cocaine, torturing people, launching nuclear weapons. Doing it times and times over, never being shy about it, and never admitting any wrong. There is zero structure of improvement in the US government behavior. Those structure exists, for example the Geneva treaty, the Rome treaty which brings trial for war criminals, but the US government refuses any accountability. There is no downside to the erratic US behavior.

lavamantis 12y ago
I doubt change is going to come from external pressure or treaties (although those are good things). Change is going to come when a lot more people become aware of just how bad things have been going, and why. All of the atrocities you mentioned have been done to protect and expand the interests of the wealthy, and have been done in as much secrecy as possible. I have reason to hope that things CAN change and in fact, ARE changing. Look how rapidly gay marriage has gone from an impossibility to soon being the law of the land in an incredibly short amount of time. Pot legalization is happening at the same speed. The next great wave will be atheism. These things are happening because of increased communication and awareness due to our newfound interconnectivity. That is only going to increase. Soon it will be extremely hard to keep secrets at all, a condition that is essential to these atrocities continuing.
slg 12y ago
What country that has been considered a world power hasn't participated in the same level of "evil"? The whole "power corrupts" thing isn't an American problem it is a problem with human nature.
- nitrogen 12y ago
  Why does a country need to be a singular "world power"?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

Torgo 12y ago

Democracies don't have memory, they only have momentum.

glitchdout 12y ago

> Our job is to learn from the past and try to prevent it from happening again in the future. Doesn't seem to be working with Guantanamo. Or invading other countries.