3 ms·

Well as your parent post indicates MS did a lot of bad shit. "oh I screwed you mommy over again and again, no worries, no foul, now we are chums, lets be all bu

by srean 12y ago

Well as your parent post indicates MS did a lot of bad shit. "oh I screwed you mommy over again and again, no worries, no foul, now we are chums, lets be all buddy buddy and sing Kumbaya in a circle" doesnt work all that well in practice and neither should it. That is what learning from past experiences is about. When a behavior gets institutionalized, it is likely to repeat more often than not. It requires exceptional evidence and time before for trust to be regained. A person rises up in a typical institution by following and embracing its institutional patterns. When they have their back to the wall how unlikely are they to fall back on their old patterns, heck they neednt even have their back on the wall. Now if someone gets get screwed over by them, no ones more to blame than themselves. As they say, "fool me once ..." It is entirely possible that someone else does similar damage to your business in an unethical way, but if one goes to a repeat offender and gets treated that way, the shame is on him / her.

freehunter 12y ago
Yes, but as my post indicates, they've done a lot of good stuff since the bad stuff they did 20 years ago. They've had exceptional evidence and time, but hating Microsoft is just the thing to do in some IT circles. It doesn't matter what MS does, the cool kids will still hate them. And that's fine. I just don't want to hear about it. You're mad. We get it. You don't have to like them, all we ask is that you stop bringing it up in every thread. See also: bringing up Google Reader in every Google thread or bringing up the NSA in every thread about cloud providers. We know bad things happened. But you're still dragging the thread off-topic.
- srean 12y ago
  > I just don't want to hear about it. ... and therefore people should curtail their speech ? stop talking about relevant things that transpired ? May be you are a tad shaky on the concept, lets burn all the existing history books and those about to be written. > They've had exceptional evidence and time That is your opinion. The way it works is that you dont get to decide for someone else who has lost the trust whether MS has done enough, its the prerogative of the person who has lost the trust. The waiter at a restaurant chews on the serving and says this food is perfectly fine and you must push it down your throat isnt a very solid defense of the food. The buck stops at the desk of the restaurant patron. And who said 'hate' ? That seems like your construct. Its a question of choice, should one buy into the MS ecosystem or not. Every person makes his / her own choice. I for one am now more willing to invest time in learning F#, but quite queasy about being dependent on that ecosystem financially. > But you're still dragging the thread off-topic. Oh really ? what exactly was off-topic in the thread and why. As I said, perhaps you are a little slow on the concepts. > the bad stuff they did 20 years ago False, and this has been amply demonstrated on this thread. But the time is not relevant. What is the relevant is the confidence / assurance that it wont happen again and the wisdom or the lack of patronizing a repeat offender. Why did those bad things happen, and why wont those things happen again. Whoever wants to use their products need answers that satisfy them. Different consumers will have different standards. Perhaps it is good teachable moment for corporations. Deliberate and repeat actions can continue to affect them long after. If those in charge were so concerned, they perhaps should have thought it through. After all you make the bed you lie in. A parting thought, those bad shit, they were far from an impetuous one off.
  - freehunter 12y ago
    > The waiter at a restaurant chews on the serving and says this food is perfectly fine and you must push it down your throat isnt a very solid defense of the food. The buck stops at the desk of the restaurant patron. If I order steak at a restaurant and they bring me fish, I'm within my rights to complain. If they bring me out the fish and give my meal to me for free, that's great. But if I'm still complaining about the steak even after getting a free meal, then after getting a coupon for future meals for free, and getting a manager apology, and getting discounts on meals, and then they pay me to stop complaining, if I'm still complaining, don't you think that's going too far? You can be unhappy all you want, that's your right. But how long can you go to that restaurant and complain about them mixing up steak and fish before the other patrons tell you you're being rude? Of course then you turn to that patron and say they're a shill for the restaurant. What you say has been "amply demonstrated" has been completely refuted not just by myself. Please. I beg of you. Some of us just want to discuss the news, the actual relevant news that is happening right now with other like-minded people. If you come into a thread solely to hate and troll... please. Just turn around and walk out. If you like Red Hat, if you like Arch, if you like Mac, if you like Android, please just go there and talk about the things you like. You don't have to come here and shit on everything. That's called being a troll. It happens in almost every thread, but the difference is trolling other companies gets you downvoted. Trolling Microsoft gets the discussion flagged off the front page. So please just go away.
    - nocman 12y ago
      IMHO the long list of items you added to the restaurant analogy does not make the analogy a more accurrate representation of the relationship of Microsoft to the users of their products. In fact (again IMHO) your description is laughable if it is intended to accurately represent Microsofts's efforts to reconcile with users it has wronged in the past. Microsoft simply hasn't put in anything like that kind of effort to instill confindence in their good will toward their customers. Obviously srean probably agrees with me on that point. > So please just go away. Telling srean to go away is just not in the spirit of this site. He/she (I honestly don't know which it is) has been reasonably civil, and did not attack you personally. You simply don't agree with him/her. He/she has contributed reasonably to the conversation, so you have no valid reason to ask him/her to stop commenting on the topic. And lastly (again, IMHO) your comments appear to be much more troll-like than his/hers. You have been much less civil in this conversation than srean. And I'm not going to ask you to "go away" :-D (edited for a typo and a missed "/her" )

by srean 12y ago

freehunter 12y ago

Yes, but as my post indicates, they've done a lot of good stuff since the bad stuff they did 20 years ago. They've had exceptional evidence and time, but hating Microsoft is just the thing to do in some IT circles. It doesn't matter what MS does, the cool kids will still hate them. And that's fine. I just don't want to hear about it. You're mad. We get it. You don't have to like them, all we ask is that you stop bringing it up in every thread. See also: bringing up Google Reader in every Google thread or bringing up the NSA in every thread about cloud providers. We know bad things happened. But you're still dragging the thread off-topic.

srean 12y ago
> I just don't want to hear about it. ... and therefore people should curtail their speech ? stop talking about relevant things that transpired ? May be you are a tad shaky on the concept, lets burn all the existing history books and those about to be written. > They've had exceptional evidence and time That is your opinion. The way it works is that you dont get to decide for someone else who has lost the trust whether MS has done enough, its the prerogative of the person who has lost the trust. The waiter at a restaurant chews on the serving and says this food is perfectly fine and you must push it down your throat isnt a very solid defense of the food. The buck stops at the desk of the restaurant patron. And who said 'hate' ? That seems like your construct. Its a question of choice, should one buy into the MS ecosystem or not. Every person makes his / her own choice. I for one am now more willing to invest time in learning F#, but quite queasy about being dependent on that ecosystem financially. > But you're still dragging the thread off-topic. Oh really ? what exactly was off-topic in the thread and why. As I said, perhaps you are a little slow on the concepts. > the bad stuff they did 20 years ago False, and this has been amply demonstrated on this thread. But the time is not relevant. What is the relevant is the confidence / assurance that it wont happen again and the wisdom or the lack of patronizing a repeat offender. Why did those bad things happen, and why wont those things happen again. Whoever wants to use their products need answers that satisfy them. Different consumers will have different standards. Perhaps it is good teachable moment for corporations. Deliberate and repeat actions can continue to affect them long after. If those in charge were so concerned, they perhaps should have thought it through. After all you make the bed you lie in. A parting thought, those bad shit, they were far from an impetuous one off.
- freehunter 12y ago
  > The waiter at a restaurant chews on the serving and says this food is perfectly fine and you must push it down your throat isnt a very solid defense of the food. The buck stops at the desk of the restaurant patron. If I order steak at a restaurant and they bring me fish, I'm within my rights to complain. If they bring me out the fish and give my meal to me for free, that's great. But if I'm still complaining about the steak even after getting a free meal, then after getting a coupon for future meals for free, and getting a manager apology, and getting discounts on meals, and then they pay me to stop complaining, if I'm still complaining, don't you think that's going too far? You can be unhappy all you want, that's your right. But how long can you go to that restaurant and complain about them mixing up steak and fish before the other patrons tell you you're being rude? Of course then you turn to that patron and say they're a shill for the restaurant. What you say has been "amply demonstrated" has been completely refuted not just by myself. Please. I beg of you. Some of us just want to discuss the news, the actual relevant news that is happening right now with other like-minded people. If you come into a thread solely to hate and troll... please. Just turn around and walk out. If you like Red Hat, if you like Arch, if you like Mac, if you like Android, please just go there and talk about the things you like. You don't have to come here and shit on everything. That's called being a troll. It happens in almost every thread, but the difference is trolling other companies gets you downvoted. Trolling Microsoft gets the discussion flagged off the front page. So please just go away.
  - nocman 12y ago
    IMHO the long list of items you added to the restaurant analogy does not make the analogy a more accurrate representation of the relationship of Microsoft to the users of their products. In fact (again IMHO) your description is laughable if it is intended to accurately represent Microsofts's efforts to reconcile with users it has wronged in the past. Microsoft simply hasn't put in anything like that kind of effort to instill confindence in their good will toward their customers. Obviously srean probably agrees with me on that point. > So please just go away. Telling srean to go away is just not in the spirit of this site. He/she (I honestly don't know which it is) has been reasonably civil, and did not attack you personally. You simply don't agree with him/her. He/she has contributed reasonably to the conversation, so you have no valid reason to ask him/her to stop commenting on the topic. And lastly (again, IMHO) your comments appear to be much more troll-like than his/hers. You have been much less civil in this conversation than srean. And I'm not going to ask you to "go away" :-D (edited for a typo and a missed "/her" )