5 ms·

You Can't Do What You Want By Doing Something Else

86 points by saurabh 17y ago

zasz 17y ago
Here is a link to an excerpt from the book in question: http://www.fastcompany.com/node/45909/print http://www.fastcompany.com/node/45909/print And a direct quote from the author on the subject of the blog post: It turns out that having the financial independence to walk away rarely triggers people to do just that. The reality is, making money is such hard work that it changes you. It takes twice as long as anyone plans for. It requires more sacrifices than anyone expects. You become so emotionally invested in that world -- and psychologically adapted to it -- that you don't really want to ditch it. I met many people who had left the money behind. But having "enough" didn't trigger the change. It had to get personal: Something had to happen such as divorce, the death of a parent, or the recognition that the long hours were hurting one's children. (One man, Don Linn, left investment banking after he came home from a business trip and his two-year-old son didn't recognize him.)
microcentury 17y ago
I've just rolled out of bed in a mid-Sunday-afternoon and this article is a bit like a slap in the face. I want to be a writer, and some people who are both likely to know and unlikely to mislead me have said I have a reasonable shot at making my living that way, based on what they've seen. But for the last five years I've been working in a Giant Corporation, where the money is good and the prospects are good and my parents are delighted that I'm 'doing so well', and it has proved _immensely_ difficult for me to walk away. Our bonuses are paid in March, and every year I say to myself: next March I'm done. That's it. I've been distracted long enough. And every year I don't :-( Sigh. Who knew chasing your dreams would be difficult?
- idlewords 17y ago
  Nobody has a reasonable shot at making their living writing, including the most talented writers. You do it for other reasons and find ways to sustain yourself on the side. If you've managed to put off your dream for five years, then you need to ask yourself whether this is really your life's goal.
  - microcentury 17y ago
    There are inarguably a lot of people in the world who _do_ make their living as writers, so I think it comes down to your definition of 'reasonable'. Re asking myself difficult questions, I think that's a fair point, and it's something I think about every day. Each time the answer is 'yes', though :-)
    - idlewords 17y ago
      Many thousands of people make their living as opera singers, sculptors, and professional athletes. But they represent a tiny minority of the very talented people who aspire to do this and fail. There's a similar dynamic in writing. Note that I am not saying "do not try to be a writer". Just don't expect to be able to make your living that way.
  - unalone 17y ago
    I call bullshit on this. Do you know how many fields exist for aspiring writers? It's not all people writing novel manuscripts. If you total up all the people making a living with words, you've got a pretty impressive sum.
- pmichaud 17y ago
  You need to make time to sit down and do it, whether you're working for Acme or not.
- wallflower 17y ago
  microcentury please read this (1) and listen to this (2) (1) http://www.elizabethgilbert.com/writing.htm http://www.elizabethgilbert.com/writing.htm (2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hidvElQ0xE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hidvElQ0xE
  - microcentury 17y ago
    Many thanks wallflower, GavinB and cstross for the advice :-) Edit: Oops, and xcombinator, just saw your comment!
- xcombinator 17y ago
  My advice is for you to find something you need writing, but is new, this way you are not competing with Shakespeare, Cervantes, or Stefan Sweiz (man, they had been good writers out there). Find something you are unique and good and follow that, books that could help you: "Rich dad,poor dad" "think and grow rich". Is not about being rich, is about changing your internal way of thinking you get used to think from a life with your parents, family, work... Good luck
- GavinB 17y ago
  [Assuming you want to write books here, not magazines or technical writing] Most writers start writing and sell their first manuscripts or non-fiction projects while working at another job. Another large group are stay at home moms, which is really no different because they're still working writing around a time-consuming job. Set aside 1-2 hours per day for a year. At the end of the year you should have a complete, revised manuscript and be able to start querying agents. Very few writers sell their first manuscript, so expect to have to go through the process at least a couple of times. I would not recommend quitting your job to write full time. That puts too much pressure on you too fast. Once you're comfortable writing frequently you can consider leaving the industry for a year if you can afford to, but don't expect that quitting your job will help you overcome procrastination.
  - cstross 17y ago
    What He Said. (I am a full-time novelist. I had to do other stuff for close to 20 years first, though. It's not a bed of roses, and it takes lots of practice and experience -- and knock-backs -- before you get anywhere. Oh, and it's badly paid and the hours are long! Frankly, if you're _lucky_ it's a lot like running your own one-person start-up, only without the break-out potential. And if you're not lucky, it sucks.)
    - ido 17y ago
      I am not a writer myself, but I know several novelists. Some of which considered successful - i.e. they published several books which sold well and got payed handsomely for it. None of them works as a novelist full time, because they would have never been able to cover their expenses. Your chances of success (where success == making a living out of it without needing to keep another job) might be even lower than for indie game developers...
neilk 17y ago
It's interesting -- I know at least six people who triumphed when their part-time side project took off. I don't know anyone who made enough money, and then switched to the thing they claimed to really wanted to do. Obviously there are limits. Plenty of students work short-term jobs they don't like to pay for a vacation. But that's not the same kind of investment one makes in a career.
holdenc 17y ago
I beg to differ that no one transitions out of the practical job after finding financial security. This is essentially retirement. They key is not letting one's social fulfillment and income be tied to a single source. (And not growing old before walking away.)
pavs 17y ago
Wow. After reading so many negative reviews from amazon, I am scared to even touch this book. What happened? How did it go to NYT best sellers list for 22 weeks?
- cgs 17y ago
  Maybe most people are disappointed with it because it doesn't fit into the self-help mold of, "here's what you should do." Rather, you have to think and reflect on your own unique situation and come up with your own solution. Just a guess from someone who hasn't actually read the book.
- zasz 17y ago
  I like reading the most top-rated reviews first, kind of like going for the top-rated comments on HN first. Amazon review voters are pretty good at voting mostly for the well-written, balanced reviews. The top-rated review got 458 of 486 votes for being helpful and gave the book four out of five stars. I wouldn't be afraid of it.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
davi 17y ago
Corollary: You can't get better at what you want to do by doing something else.
cesare 17y ago
Another great book on this topic is "The Soul's Code" by James Hillman. http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Code-Search-Character-Calling/dp/0446673714 http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Code-Search-Character-Calling/dp...
Mz 17y ago
Money is seductive. It's an easy way to get some of your needs met. But much of what it can do for you is superficial. If you are basically "living right", more money can be wonderful. If not, it really doesn't make up for all the things that are so very wrong with your life. I already am pursuing my dreams. I continue to wrestle with how to monetize those activities so I can afford to walk away from my day job. I think I'm still moving in the right direction but I still have days when I feel like it's hopeless, it's taking too long, and I am just never going to get there from here. Bah, humbug.
ax0n 17y ago
I was thinking about something very similar yesterday. People have goals for what they want to do in life. Maybe it's what they want to become -- their own boss, a missionary or an independently wealthy person. Maybe it's what they want to do -- fish, drive fast cars, or see every continent in person. Regardless, people should come up a plan for how to do -- or become those things. And the goals they set for themselves should be ones that really do get them closer to what they want. Any time spent doing things that don't really help you toward your goal (this includes surviving in order to meet your goal, duh!) is basically a betrayal of one's self. As for me? I just want to help people. I do it by learning things well enough to teach them to others, by honing my writing and speaking skills, by writing and speaking about helpful things, and -- of course -- by lending a hand to people whom I know how to help.
wallflower 17y ago
I read his book a while ago (it was on clearance). I feel it's a really nice coffee-table book to open at random and read one of the profiles. The real answer of WSIDWML is that it's a very personal question. And reading about others candidly talking about their hopes, frustrations, and regrets helps give a third-party but first-person perspective in life. Bear in mind though, as someone wiser than me said: "to compare is to despair" (This is a major reason I refuse to join Facebook) I've come to the conclusion that happiness is short-term and we must sustain the happiness by doing something that we like and/or challenges us and/or that we fear nearly every single day. A great hobby is sometimes a sustainable source of happiness, and it's good to diversify. I'm pretty sure I'm a maker-type - that's what makes me happy. The people I know with enough money to build a virtual moat around themselves still have problems - they're just not directly financial. My favorite profile was the one of the toner sales executive; she had to lobby Po Bronson to be included in the book.
- mr_luc 17y ago
  The real answer of WSIDWML is that it's a very personal question. I third this from my own experience. From the "Quarter Life Crisis" thread. (what I'm doing http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680218 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680218) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680263 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680263 The what to do part is the most personal part of escaping, and the part that determines if it'll be an episode or a part of your life going forward. So it shouldn't be surprising if there's very little transference between people. ;)
edw519 17y ago
But he encountered exactly zero people who pulled it off. Then he didn't talk to enough people. I know plenty who have pulled it off. In fact, when it comes to starting a business, prior domain experience is a huge plus. We like to romanticize the legend of 2 young people starting the next big thing in their dorm room. But a more likely scenario would be a few people with 10 years experience sick and tired of conventional industry practices who have figured out a better way to satisfy the market. It's so hard to do it from within that they go out on their own.
- zasz 17y ago
  Actually, you're right. One of my favorite webcomic writers has been toiling away in advertising for many years, and now he's finally abandoning all his writing side projects to focus on his novel. It would have been pretty irresponsible of him to do that without a financial cushion from doing advertising, since he has a family. And he need to practice on his free side projects first before producing a novel anyway.
bufordtwain 17y ago
"Working" by Studs Terkel is a great book on the same subject.
- nfnaaron 17y ago
  Gig: Americans Talk About Their Jobs by John Bowe, Marisa Bowe, and Sabin Streeter is a good, recent companion to Working. I liked both books.
DavidSJ 17y ago
Random observation: very similar style to folklore.org, e.g.: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Ill_Be_Your_Best_Friend.txt&sortOrder=Sort%20by%20Date&detail=medium http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...
fizx 17y ago
Counter-example: Jeff Hawkins founded Palm to later do neuroscience.
extantproject 17y ago
"You can do both." - Gary Vaynerchuk http://garyvaynerchuk.com/post/78962355/you-can-have-bothjobs http://garyvaynerchuk.com/post/78962355/you-can-have-bothjob...

86 points by saurabh 17y ago

zasz 17y ago

Here is a link to an excerpt from the book in question: http://www.fastcompany.com/node/45909/print http://www.fastcompany.com/node/45909/print And a direct quote from the author on the subject of the blog post: It turns out that having the financial independence to walk away rarely triggers people to do just that. The reality is, making money is such hard work that it changes you. It takes twice as long as anyone plans for. It requires more sacrifices than anyone expects. You become so emotionally invested in that world -- and psychologically adapted to it -- that you don't really want to ditch it. I met many people who had left the money behind. But having "enough" didn't trigger the change. It had to get personal: Something had to happen such as divorce, the death of a parent, or the recognition that the long hours were hurting one's children. (One man, Don Linn, left investment banking after he came home from a business trip and his two-year-old son didn't recognize him.)

microcentury 17y ago

I've just rolled out of bed in a mid-Sunday-afternoon and this article is a bit like a slap in the face. I want to be a writer, and some people who are both likely to know and unlikely to mislead me have said I have a reasonable shot at making my living that way, based on what they've seen. But for the last five years I've been working in a Giant Corporation, where the money is good and the prospects are good and my parents are delighted that I'm 'doing so well', and it has proved _immensely_ difficult for me to walk away. Our bonuses are paid in March, and every year I say to myself: next March I'm done. That's it. I've been distracted long enough. And every year I don't :-( Sigh. Who knew chasing your dreams would be difficult?

idlewords 17y ago
Nobody has a reasonable shot at making their living writing, including the most talented writers. You do it for other reasons and find ways to sustain yourself on the side. If you've managed to put off your dream for five years, then you need to ask yourself whether this is really your life's goal.
- microcentury 17y ago
  There are inarguably a lot of people in the world who _do_ make their living as writers, so I think it comes down to your definition of 'reasonable'. Re asking myself difficult questions, I think that's a fair point, and it's something I think about every day. Each time the answer is 'yes', though :-)
  - idlewords 17y ago
    Many thousands of people make their living as opera singers, sculptors, and professional athletes. But they represent a tiny minority of the very talented people who aspire to do this and fail. There's a similar dynamic in writing. Note that I am not saying "do not try to be a writer". Just don't expect to be able to make your living that way.
- unalone 17y ago
  I call bullshit on this. Do you know how many fields exist for aspiring writers? It's not all people writing novel manuscripts. If you total up all the people making a living with words, you've got a pretty impressive sum.
pmichaud 17y ago
You need to make time to sit down and do it, whether you're working for Acme or not.
wallflower 17y ago
microcentury please read this (1) and listen to this (2) (1) http://www.elizabethgilbert.com/writing.htm http://www.elizabethgilbert.com/writing.htm (2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hidvElQ0xE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hidvElQ0xE
- microcentury 17y ago
  Many thanks wallflower, GavinB and cstross for the advice :-) Edit: Oops, and xcombinator, just saw your comment!
xcombinator 17y ago
My advice is for you to find something you need writing, but is new, this way you are not competing with Shakespeare, Cervantes, or Stefan Sweiz (man, they had been good writers out there). Find something you are unique and good and follow that, books that could help you: "Rich dad,poor dad" "think and grow rich". Is not about being rich, is about changing your internal way of thinking you get used to think from a life with your parents, family, work... Good luck
GavinB 17y ago
[Assuming you want to write books here, not magazines or technical writing] Most writers start writing and sell their first manuscripts or non-fiction projects while working at another job. Another large group are stay at home moms, which is really no different because they're still working writing around a time-consuming job. Set aside 1-2 hours per day for a year. At the end of the year you should have a complete, revised manuscript and be able to start querying agents. Very few writers sell their first manuscript, so expect to have to go through the process at least a couple of times. I would not recommend quitting your job to write full time. That puts too much pressure on you too fast. Once you're comfortable writing frequently you can consider leaving the industry for a year if you can afford to, but don't expect that quitting your job will help you overcome procrastination.
- cstross 17y ago
  What He Said. (I am a full-time novelist. I had to do other stuff for close to 20 years first, though. It's not a bed of roses, and it takes lots of practice and experience -- and knock-backs -- before you get anywhere. Oh, and it's badly paid and the hours are long! Frankly, if you're _lucky_ it's a lot like running your own one-person start-up, only without the break-out potential. And if you're not lucky, it sucks.)
  - ido 17y ago
    I am not a writer myself, but I know several novelists. Some of which considered successful - i.e. they published several books which sold well and got payed handsomely for it. None of them works as a novelist full time, because they would have never been able to cover their expenses. Your chances of success (where success == making a living out of it without needing to keep another job) might be even lower than for indie game developers...

neilk 17y ago

It's interesting -- I know at least six people who triumphed when their part-time side project took off. I don't know anyone who made enough money, and then switched to the thing they claimed to really wanted to do. Obviously there are limits. Plenty of students work short-term jobs they don't like to pay for a vacation. But that's not the same kind of investment one makes in a career.

holdenc 17y ago

I beg to differ that no one transitions out of the practical job after finding financial security. This is essentially retirement. They key is not letting one's social fulfillment and income be tied to a single source. (And not growing old before walking away.)

pavs 17y ago

Wow. After reading so many negative reviews from amazon, I am scared to even touch this book. What happened? How did it go to NYT best sellers list for 22 weeks?

cgs 17y ago
Maybe most people are disappointed with it because it doesn't fit into the self-help mold of, "here's what you should do." Rather, you have to think and reflect on your own unique situation and come up with your own solution. Just a guess from someone who hasn't actually read the book.
zasz 17y ago
I like reading the most top-rated reviews first, kind of like going for the top-rated comments on HN first. Amazon review voters are pretty good at voting mostly for the well-written, balanced reviews. The top-rated review got 458 of 486 votes for being helpful and gave the book four out of five stars. I wouldn't be afraid of it.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

davi 17y ago

Corollary: You can't get better at what you want to do by doing something else.

cesare 17y ago

Another great book on this topic is "The Soul's Code" by James Hillman. http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Code-Search-Character-Calling/dp/0446673714 http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Code-Search-Character-Calling/dp...

Mz 17y ago

Money is seductive. It's an easy way to get some of your needs met. But much of what it can do for you is superficial. If you are basically "living right", more money can be wonderful. If not, it really doesn't make up for all the things that are so very wrong with your life. I already am pursuing my dreams. I continue to wrestle with how to monetize those activities so I can afford to walk away from my day job. I think I'm still moving in the right direction but I still have days when I feel like it's hopeless, it's taking too long, and I am just never going to get there from here. Bah, humbug.

ax0n 17y ago

I was thinking about something very similar yesterday. People have goals for what they want to do in life. Maybe it's what they want to become -- their own boss, a missionary or an independently wealthy person. Maybe it's what they want to do -- fish, drive fast cars, or see every continent in person. Regardless, people should come up a plan for how to do -- or become those things. And the goals they set for themselves should be ones that really do get them closer to what they want. Any time spent doing things that don't really help you toward your goal (this includes surviving in order to meet your goal, duh!) is basically a betrayal of one's self. As for me? I just want to help people. I do it by learning things well enough to teach them to others, by honing my writing and speaking skills, by writing and speaking about helpful things, and -- of course -- by lending a hand to people whom I know how to help.

wallflower 17y ago

I read his book a while ago (it was on clearance). I feel it's a really nice coffee-table book to open at random and read one of the profiles. The real answer of WSIDWML is that it's a very personal question. And reading about others candidly talking about their hopes, frustrations, and regrets helps give a third-party but first-person perspective in life. Bear in mind though, as someone wiser than me said: "to compare is to despair" (This is a major reason I refuse to join Facebook) I've come to the conclusion that happiness is short-term and we must sustain the happiness by doing something that we like and/or challenges us and/or that we fear nearly every single day. A great hobby is sometimes a sustainable source of happiness, and it's good to diversify. I'm pretty sure I'm a maker-type - that's what makes me happy. The people I know with enough money to build a virtual moat around themselves still have problems - they're just not directly financial. My favorite profile was the one of the toner sales executive; she had to lobby Po Bronson to be included in the book.

mr_luc 17y ago
The real answer of WSIDWML is that it's a very personal question. I third this from my own experience. From the "Quarter Life Crisis" thread. (what I'm doing http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680218 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680218) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680263 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680263 The what to do part is the most personal part of escaping, and the part that determines if it'll be an episode or a part of your life going forward. So it shouldn't be surprising if there's very little transference between people. ;)

edw519 17y ago

But he encountered exactly zero people who pulled it off. Then he didn't talk to enough people. I know plenty who have pulled it off. In fact, when it comes to starting a business, prior domain experience is a huge plus. We like to romanticize the legend of 2 young people starting the next big thing in their dorm room. But a more likely scenario would be a few people with 10 years experience sick and tired of conventional industry practices who have figured out a better way to satisfy the market. It's so hard to do it from within that they go out on their own.

zasz 17y ago
Actually, you're right. One of my favorite webcomic writers has been toiling away in advertising for many years, and now he's finally abandoning all his writing side projects to focus on his novel. It would have been pretty irresponsible of him to do that without a financial cushion from doing advertising, since he has a family. And he need to practice on his free side projects first before producing a novel anyway.

bufordtwain 17y ago

"Working" by Studs Terkel is a great book on the same subject.

nfnaaron 17y ago
Gig: Americans Talk About Their Jobs by John Bowe, Marisa Bowe, and Sabin Streeter is a good, recent companion to Working. I liked both books.

DavidSJ 17y ago

Random observation: very similar style to folklore.org, e.g.: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Ill_Be_Your_Best_Friend.txt&sortOrder=Sort%20by%20Date&detail=medium http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...

fizx 17y ago

Counter-example: Jeff Hawkins founded Palm to later do neuroscience.

extantproject 17y ago

"You can do both." - Gary Vaynerchuk http://garyvaynerchuk.com/post/78962355/you-can-have-bothjobs http://garyvaynerchuk.com/post/78962355/you-can-have-bothjob...