5 ms·

Microsoft has, consistently, supported developers better than almost any other ecosystem. It's a walled garden, but it's well-kempt.

bad_user 12y ago
Yeah, you know, if they wanted to support developers better, they would have turned Windows into a Unix, they would have made Visual Studio cross-platform, or at the very least they would have fixed that goddamn cmd.exe, which is like the worst CLI ever and they would have cared about web standards. I also find Visual Studio to be worse than IntelliJ IDEA (at least without IntelliJ Resharper that is) and in the past every time I did anything with .NET I was baffled to find out that I do not have access to source with one click, or that .NET doesn't have anything like Maven. At least now they are open-sourcing the CLR, the core library, ASP.NET, are making .NET cross-platform and made progress on the tooling, like with NuGet (still not close to what Maven does, but it's something). So I'm ready to forgive and forget, but lets not go overboard - only 2 years ago .NET and Windows felt like going back to 1998 ;-)
- angersock 12y ago
  So, if you're still using cmd instead of PowerShell (which we are, sigh...), you deserve the misery. Why would turning Windows into a Unix have helped anyone? Pike and Plan9 tried to save Unix better then ten years ago, and nobody gave a shit. Also, why do you even want something like Maven? That's like bitching that Windows doesn't have autotools--or was that next on your list of complaints? Tell me about how the MSDN is less helpful than man pages. Tell me about how the Windows API is worse documented and more poorly designed than POSIX (lol). Tell me about how executables compiled on one Windows machine don't transport to other Windows machines easily. I'll stand by my statement, thank you very much.
  - bad_user 12y ago
    > if you're still using cmd instead of PowerShell PowerShell is a shell, not a CLI, one starts PowerShell inside cmd.exe. > Why would turning Windows into a Unix have helped anyone? It helped OS X ;-) > Also, why do you even want something like Maven? Because you have to rely on Visual Studio for automating your build, testing and deployment process, it it's not doing a good job and again, is like going back to the nineties. > Tell me about how the MSDN is less helpful than man pages. Well, MSDN isn't competing with man pages, but with readily available source-code at the click of a button and with libraries documented like this one is - http://akka.io/ http://akka.io/ > Tell me about how executables compiled on one Windows machine don't transport to other Windows machines easily. Never had a problem with OS X. And on Linux, people automate the shit out of the build process so it isn't much of a problem, hence the need for tools ;-)
    - angersock 12y ago
      One does not, in fact, start Powershell from inside cmd. "It helped OS X ;-)" Have you seen what they were coming from? Apple is a fucking joke when it comes to systems and software engineering--it's their industrial design and UX that everyone loves. "rely on Visual Studio for automating your build" msbuild.exe and PowerShell. "It's not doing a good job" compared to what, exactly? It's super easy to set up compiler options in C/C++ on MSVC, pretty easy to add other things. You'd prefer makefiles? "available source-code at the click of a button" because when we're hacking we want to stop and read somebody else's code instead of, you know, just using a cleanly documented API. "And on Linux, people automate the shit out of the build process so it isn't much of a problem" bahahahahahha hahahahaa haha (no) ~ It seems like you're trolling or you've never worked on a project outside of your bubble.
      - bad_user 12y ago
        > One does not, in fact, start Powershell from inside cmd I'm talking about the Command Prompt, that window with which you get access to a shell. I really don't know what you're talking about. > Apple is a fucking joke when it comes to systems and software engineering That's not an argument I can reply to. > msbuild.exe and PowerShell MsBuild.exe is Ant. PowerShell is, well, a shell language. This combination is not a substitute for Maven, hence my argument that it felt like going back to the nineties. > You'd prefer makefiles? No, I'd prefer something like Maven. > Because when we're hacking we want to stop and read somebody else's code Yes, precisely. > It seems like you're trolling or you've never worked on a project outside of your bubble. Note that I never resorted to ad-hominems. That's very unprofessional and very unlike the HN attitude. Chill. And if you do feel the need for personal attacks, I'm also public about my identity, it's not much, but here you have my resume and my GitHub profile, no need to guess - https://www.bionicspirit.com/pages/about.html https://www.bionicspirit.com/pages/about.html
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        > I'm talking about the Command Prompt, that window with which you get access to a shell. You mean "a console window". Command Prompt is the name of the baked-in shortcut which starts cmd.exe in a console window.
  - diltonm 12y ago
    I used to complain about Maven but in the past couple of years it has made some significant usability improvements especially with regards to Eclipse projects.
- rco8786 12y ago
  > I also find Visual Studio to be worse than IntelliJ IDEA I guess it's personal opinion...but I can't imagine how or why you would think this. Unless you enjoy long GC pauses in the middle of writing code?
  - tjohns 12y ago
    I've never experienced a (noticeable) GC pause while working in IntelliJ, despite working on some very large projects. That said, if this is a problem, you can tune the VM's memory options. There's even a "MaxGCPauseMillis" option: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4676604/how-to-improve-intellij-code-editor-speed http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4676604/how-to-improve-in... Or even better, submit a CPU snapshot to JetBrains so they can fix the problem: https://intellij-support.jetbrains.com/entries/29983118-Reporting-performance-problems https://intellij-support.jetbrains.com/entries/29983118-Repo...
    - gtaylor 12y ago
      These aren't too uncommon, even with smaller codebases (<1 million SLOC). I've seen it on my Linux box and my Macbook. I tend to leave IntelliJ open for a long time, which may or may not be related. I still love the IDE, but this is my one big gripe. Maybe they'll fix it with the next big platform update.
  - melling 12y ago
    IntelliJ is an excellent IDE. I've used it off and on for a decade. I can't ever recall it going into a long GC pause.
frozenport 12y ago
Besides recent problems like poor C++11 support, MS in the past has pulled support for proprietary languages leaving mission critical code in limbo. Recal the death of VB6.

bad_user 12y ago

Yeah, you know, if they wanted to support developers better, they would have turned Windows into a Unix, they would have made Visual Studio cross-platform, or at the very least they would have fixed that goddamn cmd.exe, which is like the worst CLI ever and they would have cared about web standards. I also find Visual Studio to be worse than IntelliJ IDEA (at least without IntelliJ Resharper that is) and in the past every time I did anything with .NET I was baffled to find out that I do not have access to source with one click, or that .NET doesn't have anything like Maven. At least now they are open-sourcing the CLR, the core library, ASP.NET, are making .NET cross-platform and made progress on the tooling, like with NuGet (still not close to what Maven does, but it's something). So I'm ready to forgive and forget, but lets not go overboard - only 2 years ago .NET and Windows felt like going back to 1998 ;-)

angersock 12y ago
So, if you're still using cmd instead of PowerShell (which we are, sigh...), you deserve the misery. Why would turning Windows into a Unix have helped anyone? Pike and Plan9 tried to save Unix better then ten years ago, and nobody gave a shit. Also, why do you even want something like Maven? That's like bitching that Windows doesn't have autotools--or was that next on your list of complaints? Tell me about how the MSDN is less helpful than man pages. Tell me about how the Windows API is worse documented and more poorly designed than POSIX (lol). Tell me about how executables compiled on one Windows machine don't transport to other Windows machines easily. I'll stand by my statement, thank you very much.
- bad_user 12y ago
  > if you're still using cmd instead of PowerShell PowerShell is a shell, not a CLI, one starts PowerShell inside cmd.exe. > Why would turning Windows into a Unix have helped anyone? It helped OS X ;-) > Also, why do you even want something like Maven? Because you have to rely on Visual Studio for automating your build, testing and deployment process, it it's not doing a good job and again, is like going back to the nineties. > Tell me about how the MSDN is less helpful than man pages. Well, MSDN isn't competing with man pages, but with readily available source-code at the click of a button and with libraries documented like this one is - http://akka.io/ http://akka.io/ > Tell me about how executables compiled on one Windows machine don't transport to other Windows machines easily. Never had a problem with OS X. And on Linux, people automate the shit out of the build process so it isn't much of a problem, hence the need for tools ;-)
  - angersock 12y ago
    One does not, in fact, start Powershell from inside cmd. "It helped OS X ;-)" Have you seen what they were coming from? Apple is a fucking joke when it comes to systems and software engineering--it's their industrial design and UX that everyone loves. "rely on Visual Studio for automating your build" msbuild.exe and PowerShell. "It's not doing a good job" compared to what, exactly? It's super easy to set up compiler options in C/C++ on MSVC, pretty easy to add other things. You'd prefer makefiles? "available source-code at the click of a button" because when we're hacking we want to stop and read somebody else's code instead of, you know, just using a cleanly documented API. "And on Linux, people automate the shit out of the build process so it isn't much of a problem" bahahahahahha hahahahaa haha (no) ~ It seems like you're trolling or you've never worked on a project outside of your bubble.
    - bad_user 12y ago
      > One does not, in fact, start Powershell from inside cmd I'm talking about the Command Prompt, that window with which you get access to a shell. I really don't know what you're talking about. > Apple is a fucking joke when it comes to systems and software engineering That's not an argument I can reply to. > msbuild.exe and PowerShell MsBuild.exe is Ant. PowerShell is, well, a shell language. This combination is not a substitute for Maven, hence my argument that it felt like going back to the nineties. > You'd prefer makefiles? No, I'd prefer something like Maven. > Because when we're hacking we want to stop and read somebody else's code Yes, precisely. > It seems like you're trolling or you've never worked on a project outside of your bubble. Note that I never resorted to ad-hominems. That's very unprofessional and very unlike the HN attitude. Chill. And if you do feel the need for personal attacks, I'm also public about my identity, it's not much, but here you have my resume and my GitHub profile, no need to guess - https://www.bionicspirit.com/pages/about.html https://www.bionicspirit.com/pages/about.html
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        > I'm talking about the Command Prompt, that window with which you get access to a shell. You mean "a console window". Command Prompt is the name of the baked-in shortcut which starts cmd.exe in a console window.
- diltonm 12y ago
  I used to complain about Maven but in the past couple of years it has made some significant usability improvements especially with regards to Eclipse projects.
rco8786 12y ago
> I also find Visual Studio to be worse than IntelliJ IDEA I guess it's personal opinion...but I can't imagine how or why you would think this. Unless you enjoy long GC pauses in the middle of writing code?
- tjohns 12y ago
  I've never experienced a (noticeable) GC pause while working in IntelliJ, despite working on some very large projects. That said, if this is a problem, you can tune the VM's memory options. There's even a "MaxGCPauseMillis" option: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4676604/how-to-improve-intellij-code-editor-speed http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4676604/how-to-improve-in... Or even better, submit a CPU snapshot to JetBrains so they can fix the problem: https://intellij-support.jetbrains.com/entries/29983118-Reporting-performance-problems https://intellij-support.jetbrains.com/entries/29983118-Repo...
  - gtaylor 12y ago
    These aren't too uncommon, even with smaller codebases (<1 million SLOC). I've seen it on my Linux box and my Macbook. I tend to leave IntelliJ open for a long time, which may or may not be related. I still love the IDE, but this is my one big gripe. Maybe they'll fix it with the next big platform update.
- melling 12y ago
  IntelliJ is an excellent IDE. I've used it off and on for a decade. I can't ever recall it going into a long GC pause.

frozenport 12y ago

Besides recent problems like poor C++11 support, MS in the past has pulled support for proprietary languages leaving mission critical code in limbo. Recal the death of VB6.