6 ms·

I'm just a low level drone here at MS, and I obviously am not involved in any important decisions, but I'd like to add that all the above things happened back w

by com2kid 12y ago

I'm just a low level drone here at MS, and I obviously am not involved in any important decisions, but I'd like to add that all the above things happened back when the current generation that works here was growing up. We were all on Slashdot, being outraged and angry 13 year olds. Except now my generation works here, and I think the changes (such as all the ones announced today!) are a good sign of that. At least since after I went through puberty (I'm not that young!) Microsoft has been acting pretty damn chill. I guess my main complaint is that people yell at us for sins that were committed by, quite literally, a previous generation.

jacquesm 12y ago
I would not hold it against you that you make a living with MS, that said in the present they do plenty of stuff that they really shouldn't. So it's not just the previous generation, the current one is also anything but clean.
- Sir_Blake 12y ago
  What exactly are they doing today that you don't agree with?
  - BuckRogers 12y ago
    I'll answer that. No more than any other for-profit enterprise.
  - nileshtrivedi 12y ago
    Patent threats and lawsuits against Android OEMs. Sabotaging the office document standard process at ISO. Corruption in cases where governments explored switching to alternative operating systems. Locking down computers using UEFI Secure Boot and taking control away from the owners of the machine. among other things.
- jasonlotito 12y ago
  One could say the same about companies and organizations that you admit to supporting as well. So, if all choices are bad choices, what are you left with?
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Untainted open source. There's plenty of it.
zmmmmm 12y ago
I know this opens a whole distracting side debate, but I incude Microsoft's campaign of sueing Android OEMs using [what I consider to be] a secret list of dodgy patents to be a continuation of their past evil behavior. I know there are a bunch of ways that can be debated and it's not my intention to start that debate, I just want to make the point that this view that it's all in the past that you are airing is something a significant number of people would dispute.
daveloyall 12y ago
@com2kid Microsoft defined what computers are capable of. Let me clarify: most people heard Microsoft's version of reality first--and they were amazed! We all were. Computers have changed life for all of us. But computers aren't what they could have been... Microsoft's version of computers is a pale and sickly thing, it's engineered for--that is, optimized for--profit rather than productivity. Some people use computers to save lives, right? How many more lives might have been saved over the past couple of decades if MS hadn't held features--ideas! concepts!--back again and again to enforce planned obsolescence? How many times did they obfuscate a communication protocol to maintain market dominance? I appreciate that some current MS employees aren't responsible for what happened before they were hired on. I hope you appreciate the magnitude of those past sins. There are reasons people yell!
- throwawaykf05 12y ago
  > Microsoft's version of computers is a pale and sickly thing, it's engineered for--that is, optimized for--profit rather than productivity. I think you have it backwards. It's the new vision of computers (walled gardens, all the interesting logic hidden away in data centers, content consumption appliances instead of real computers) that is pale and sickly. > How many more lives might have been saved over the past couple of decades if MS hadn't held features--ideas! concepts!--back again and again to enforce planned obsolescence? Please enlighten me on the ideas! concepts! Microsoft held back again and again that were not available on free software systems? If you want to talk about Microsoft's "past sins", I believe data trumps anecdotes: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=269498 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=269498 If you have any solid data (rather than oft-repeated anecdotes) that MS inhibited innovation on a large scale, I'd like to see it. People certainly yell for reasons, but those reasons are often very poorly informed.
  - daveloyall 12y ago
    https://nplusonemag.com/issue-19/essays/chat-wars/ https://nplusonemag.com/issue-19/essays/chat-wars/ http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/ http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/ > I think you have it backwards. It's the new vision of computers (walled gardens, all the interesting logic hidden away in data centers, content consumption appliances instead of real computers) that is pale and sickly. Yes, these new trends are worrisome. But it's not the first time! I firmly believe that we'd all be better off if THIS guy had been the one to introduce computers to the common man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzojQFyMo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzojQFyMo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOf4EMN6-XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOf4EMN6-XA To this day, Microsoft is putting computers in schools--but not LOGO, not free software, not unix, not lisp, not crates of disposable m68ks and bread boards... Nope, they are putting products in front of new generations eyeballs. Data can trump anecdotes, and it should when a culture believes they are doing the right thing but things are still going poorly and nobody understands why--at those times, by all means, collect some data and analyze it! But when "everybody knows" we're doing something wrong, and things are going poorly, then for the love of god use some common sense and stop doing it! The whole planet got 0wned by MS before many of us here were born--certainly before most of us were competent. So this is what we've got, this is where we are. Big picture: Where do we go from here? Immediate situation: don't become part of a new generation of MS fanboys. We don't need that.
nileshtrivedi 12y ago
Patent threats and lawsuits against Android OEMs. Locking down computers using UEFI Secure Boot and taking control away from the owners of the machine. Sabotaging the office document standard process at ISO. Corruption in cases where governments explored switching to alternative operating systems. Supporting software patents. All these happened within last 5 years (and continue to happen).
- tkubacki 12y ago
  "Corruption in cases where governments explored switching to alternative operating systems." huh? I'm not MS lover but can you prove this ?
  - nileshtrivedi 12y ago
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financial-crime/10260730/Microsoft-faces-US-scrutiny-over-bribery-allegations.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financial-crime/10260730/... http://techrights.org/2009/05/10/lobbyists-bribes-vs-free-sw/ http://techrights.org/2009/05/10/lobbyists-bribes-vs-free-sw...
- piokoch 12y ago
  Frankly speaking when it comes to corruption, MS cannot beat HP and IBM here. The IBM case is a big one, investigated currently by most elitary anticorruption Police unit in Poland. See articles below. https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.polskieradio.pl%2F5%2F3%2FArtykul%2F1275716%2CInfoafera-w-polskiej-administracji-Nowe-dowody-z-USA&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev... https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgielda.onet.pl%2Fkorupcja-w-hp-firma-przyznaje-sie-i-potwierdza-zar%2C18491%2C5614589%2Cnews-detal&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev...
- com2kid 12y ago
  > Locking down computers using UEFI Secure Boot and taking control away from the owners of the machine. Microsoft requires that x86 UEFI machines be unlockable by end users. In comparison, Apple has locked down various aspects of their desktop machines for years.

by com2kid 12y ago

jacquesm 12y ago

I would not hold it against you that you make a living with MS, that said in the present they do plenty of stuff that they really shouldn't. So it's not just the previous generation, the current one is also anything but clean.

Sir_Blake 12y ago
What exactly are they doing today that you don't agree with?
- BuckRogers 12y ago
  I'll answer that. No more than any other for-profit enterprise.
- nileshtrivedi 12y ago
  Patent threats and lawsuits against Android OEMs. Sabotaging the office document standard process at ISO. Corruption in cases where governments explored switching to alternative operating systems. Locking down computers using UEFI Secure Boot and taking control away from the owners of the machine. among other things.
jasonlotito 12y ago
One could say the same about companies and organizations that you admit to supporting as well. So, if all choices are bad choices, what are you left with?
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Untainted open source. There's plenty of it.

zmmmmm 12y ago

I know this opens a whole distracting side debate, but I incude Microsoft's campaign of sueing Android OEMs using [what I consider to be] a secret list of dodgy patents to be a continuation of their past evil behavior. I know there are a bunch of ways that can be debated and it's not my intention to start that debate, I just want to make the point that this view that it's all in the past that you are airing is something a significant number of people would dispute.

daveloyall 12y ago

@com2kid Microsoft defined what computers are capable of. Let me clarify: most people heard Microsoft's version of reality first--and they were amazed! We all were. Computers have changed life for all of us. But computers aren't what they could have been... Microsoft's version of computers is a pale and sickly thing, it's engineered for--that is, optimized for--profit rather than productivity. Some people use computers to save lives, right? How many more lives might have been saved over the past couple of decades if MS hadn't held features--ideas! concepts!--back again and again to enforce planned obsolescence? How many times did they obfuscate a communication protocol to maintain market dominance? I appreciate that some current MS employees aren't responsible for what happened before they were hired on. I hope you appreciate the magnitude of those past sins. There are reasons people yell!

throwawaykf05 12y ago
> Microsoft's version of computers is a pale and sickly thing, it's engineered for--that is, optimized for--profit rather than productivity. I think you have it backwards. It's the new vision of computers (walled gardens, all the interesting logic hidden away in data centers, content consumption appliances instead of real computers) that is pale and sickly. > How many more lives might have been saved over the past couple of decades if MS hadn't held features--ideas! concepts!--back again and again to enforce planned obsolescence? Please enlighten me on the ideas! concepts! Microsoft held back again and again that were not available on free software systems? If you want to talk about Microsoft's "past sins", I believe data trumps anecdotes: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=269498 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=269498 If you have any solid data (rather than oft-repeated anecdotes) that MS inhibited innovation on a large scale, I'd like to see it. People certainly yell for reasons, but those reasons are often very poorly informed.
- daveloyall 12y ago
  https://nplusonemag.com/issue-19/essays/chat-wars/ https://nplusonemag.com/issue-19/essays/chat-wars/ http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/ http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/ > I think you have it backwards. It's the new vision of computers (walled gardens, all the interesting logic hidden away in data centers, content consumption appliances instead of real computers) that is pale and sickly. Yes, these new trends are worrisome. But it's not the first time! I firmly believe that we'd all be better off if THIS guy had been the one to introduce computers to the common man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzojQFyMo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzojQFyMo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOf4EMN6-XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOf4EMN6-XA To this day, Microsoft is putting computers in schools--but not LOGO, not free software, not unix, not lisp, not crates of disposable m68ks and bread boards... Nope, they are putting products in front of new generations eyeballs. Data can trump anecdotes, and it should when a culture believes they are doing the right thing but things are still going poorly and nobody understands why--at those times, by all means, collect some data and analyze it! But when "everybody knows" we're doing something wrong, and things are going poorly, then for the love of god use some common sense and stop doing it! The whole planet got 0wned by MS before many of us here were born--certainly before most of us were competent. So this is what we've got, this is where we are. Big picture: Where do we go from here? Immediate situation: don't become part of a new generation of MS fanboys. We don't need that.

nileshtrivedi 12y ago

Patent threats and lawsuits against Android OEMs. Locking down computers using UEFI Secure Boot and taking control away from the owners of the machine. Sabotaging the office document standard process at ISO. Corruption in cases where governments explored switching to alternative operating systems. Supporting software patents. All these happened within last 5 years (and continue to happen).

tkubacki 12y ago
"Corruption in cases where governments explored switching to alternative operating systems." huh? I'm not MS lover but can you prove this ?
- nileshtrivedi 12y ago
  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financial-crime/10260730/Microsoft-faces-US-scrutiny-over-bribery-allegations.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financial-crime/10260730/... http://techrights.org/2009/05/10/lobbyists-bribes-vs-free-sw/ http://techrights.org/2009/05/10/lobbyists-bribes-vs-free-sw...
piokoch 12y ago
Frankly speaking when it comes to corruption, MS cannot beat HP and IBM here. The IBM case is a big one, investigated currently by most elitary anticorruption Police unit in Poland. See articles below. https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.polskieradio.pl%2F5%2F3%2FArtykul%2F1275716%2CInfoafera-w-polskiej-administracji-Nowe-dowody-z-USA&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev... https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgielda.onet.pl%2Fkorupcja-w-hp-firma-przyznaje-sie-i-potwierdza-zar%2C18491%2C5614589%2Cnews-detal&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev...
com2kid 12y ago
> Locking down computers using UEFI Secure Boot and taking control away from the owners of the machine. Microsoft requires that x86 UEFI machines be unlockable by end users. In comparison, Apple has locked down various aspects of their desktop machines for years.