6 ms·

Learning languages is a workout for brains, both young and old

90 points by Libertatea 12y ago

kitd 12y ago
I attribute much of my expertise at software development to learning languages at school. Translating a piece of text from one language to another consists of abstracting the core ideas and meaning from the text using the first language and reimplementing them in a natural way in the second. This is a very similar mental process to taking real-world concepts and reimplementing them in software. Among the languages I learnt was Latin, which is a very "elegant" language. Ie, it conveys much meaning in few words. Being able to do the same in software still gives me a buzz after 25 years.
- melling 12y ago
  Honestly, I'm not sure computer programming is even remotely related to language learning. If it were we would probably see more evidence. Anyway, I taught myself how to program while I was in high school, a few decades ago. Learning Spanish probably took me a decade and I never really got it until I immersed myself by studying in Guatemala for 10 weeks then backpacking to Argentina over the next several months. Actually, I considered myself good by Colombia. People didn't respond in English and I didn't have to repeat myself.
  - RevRal 12y ago
    All human languages consist of syntax and phonetics. Programming languages act as an intermediary between human intelligence and machine intelligence. We almost always require the language aspect of programming to communicate with computer hardware. It is a link for compiling syntax between both the human mind and the computer mind. We need a common means to compile information, just like communicating ideas between people. Programming languages are exactly the same thing as traditional spoken language. I'll argue that to parse any language requires a specific cognitive skill. Ever sentence diagram, look up a word in the dictionary, or look up what specific programming "words" do in a computer?
- walterbell 12y ago
  Perl & linguistics, http://world.std.com/~swmcd/steven/perl/linguistics.html http://world.std.com/~swmcd/steven/perl/linguistics.html
- memracom 12y ago
  I feel the same about Latin's elegance which I learned in the 70s in high school. More recently I have mastered Russian and find the same kind of elegance and ability to convey a lot in a few words. There are all kinds of two word and four word sentences used by Russian people as a kind of poetic shorthand about life's situations. And Russians, young and old, men and women, professional and blue-collar, have a love of great poetry and lyrics. They will often write their own and share with others as a toast, or just an impromptu performance at a party. I recommend learning Russian, which is much easier than English to learn, partly because its grammar is a lot simpler than Latin (or Romance languages) while at the same time having a much more regular vocabulary than English. I think one reason why the authors chose language learning as an example is that mastering a language, even part way, is a long term commitment over many years, and that it is the frequent and long term effort that has the effect on the brain.
tokenadult 12y ago
I could have a big-time bias toward believing this headline is true as written. (See my user profile here on Hacker News for more details about my language studies.) But I wonder if the really generalizable finding is simply that adult learners taking on a new challenging learning topic prompt their brains to grow and stay flexible longer. For me, after learning a lot of natural human languages, brushing up and extending my knowledge of mathematics for a career change seemed to provide a fair amount of intellectual growth. Maybe now it's time for me to take up music lessons or an active team sport like soccer. There is always time to learn something new, and there seem to be a lot of benefits from learning almost anything.
- drcomputer 12y ago
  I personally seek new, ridiculous, absurd, positive things to learn that no one has written about. Sometimes I feel like I get a touch of it, the more careful and in control I am with writing code. Life is fun when it's positive and unpredictable.
madnan 12y ago
I wonder if learning different programming languages does the same? Or as the comment earlier states, is it just a matter of challenging yourself and learning new things that does the same?
geekam 12y ago
Is there a certain way that languages are supposed to be learnt to maximize brain workout? In other words, does one way of learning a new language benefit more than the other? I use Duolingo for learning new language(s).
- melling 12y ago
  Many people claim that spaced repetition systems are the best way to learn, in general. Anki is a well known app that uses it. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition https://ankiweb.net https://ankiweb.net I believe Duolingo uses this technique to some extent. By the way, I've been dabbling with iOS language learning apps. I've been trying to add simple games to help with the repetition that's required to learn a new language. Plus, I recently add a thousand images so people can learn by associating the foreign word with a picture. I think it can be better than associating the word with your native language. I've built apps for several languages (French, German, Italian,Russian,...). Here's my Spanish app: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?... I also started building a language site to gather my notes in one place and try out new ideas: http://thespanishsite.com http://thespanishsite.com
  - Kronopath 12y ago
    Spaced repetition is excellent for building vocabulary and learning new words. I'm less convinced of its effectiveness for more subtle things like grammar and sentence structure—those are the kinds of things that don't fit well on a flashcard. I'd say those things are more well-developed through deliberate practice and interactions with other speakers of the language. I'll throw out a recommendation for Memrise (http://memrise.com http://memrise.com) as well.
  - michah 12y ago
    Yes, I also recommend spaced repetition systems. I made good progress with a webapp called VocLab (http://www.voclab.com/ http://www.voclab.com/). Once you studied for a while you can track your learning progress with some detailed statistics and then tweak your forgetting curve to make sure the words are presented at the right time.
chipuni 12y ago
The article seems to contradict itself. "Of the subjects learning the new vocabulary, those who were more successful in attaining the information showed a more connected brain network than both the less successful participants and those who did not learn the new vocabulary." Those who were successful showed a real improvement. But what of those who weren't successful? "The researchers also found that the participants who were successful learners had a more connected network than the other participants even before learning took place." So... people could be grouped into success or failure even before the learning. Those who weren't genetically set up for it, got little advantage.
- didibus 12y ago
  I thought the same thing, I didn't see anything in the article that mentioned that learning a new language improved your brain, unless you already had a very good and connected brain to learn the language. Maybe we can infer that if you try to learn somethign which you don't have the brain capacity to learn, it will be of no use. But if you try and learn something at your level of brain capacity, it will improve your brain. Therefore, to improve your brain you need to challenge it everytime with something it's capable of solving. Sounds a lot like it's saying, just actively practice your brain.
walterbell 12y ago
Interlinear (2 or 3 different languages in alternate line) versions of ancient religious texts are a good learning tool, because the source text has received much translator attention over time. Foreign-language bibles were one of the tools used by the inimitable sci-fi writer R.A. Lafferty (http://ralafferty.org http://ralafferty.org) to gain a reading knowledge of ten languages.
- yongjik 12y ago
  Only if you learn ancient dead languages, I suppose. Religious texts are seldom updated (because, well, they are sacred) and full of anachronisms. I mean, if you're learning English, would you want to start with this? > Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
  - iak8god 12y ago
    Why did you pick a 500yr old translation of that text as an example when there are dozens of popular modern versions? ESV, for example says this: > When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1%3A24-25&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1%3A24-...
    - walterbell 12y ago
      That's a good point, religious texts also provide a git repository for changes in languages (e.g. English) over time.
    - yongjik 12y ago
      Well, first, depending on the language, what you think of as up-to-date translation can be not quite up to date. (The Bible is a huge tome and not frequently re-translated. The target language could have changed perceptibly since the latest translation was made.) Let's look at your "modern" example. Now, I'm not a native English speaker, but I strongly doubt any English speaker of today would use "He took his wife." to mean "He accepted her as his wife." It would most likely be interpreted as "He brought along his wife." or "Person A kidnapped person B's wife." And "knew her not"? Very few people speak like that, and even fewer would mean "did not have sex with her". These little details add up much faster than a native speaker may realize. Perhaps more important is the amount of detail that will never show up in the Bible. Read the entire Bible, and I'm sure you'll never learn what "Never mind, I'm OK.", "Nice to see you again.", or "This section is under construction." means. So, you only learn a small fraction of modern language usage, and you learn it in a mostly anachronistic fashion.
facepalm 12y ago
Quote from the second paragraph: "Learning and practicing something, for instance a second language, strengthens the brain" So it is not just languages, but generally learning stuff. Who would have thought...
- Estragon 12y ago
  Yes, and unless you're planning on an extended stay somewhere you'll put it to use, there are so many alternatives which are likely to be more valuable than learning a language.
  - gumby 12y ago
    There are other reasons to learn a language, such as access to its literature. For example, once I left school I was no longer in an "extended stay where I could put it to use" (in this case, Greek and Latin) but the pleasures of the languages and cultures (especially the ancient Greeks who were _weird_) caused me to continue to use them. But learning _anything_ is good for the soul...and as Blake said, there is a universe in a grain of sand.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  > So it is not just languages, but generally learning stuff. Who would have thought... Yeah, we are in the realm of people trying to demonstrate obvious stuff. LaPalice would be proud.
fuzzythinker 12y ago
I've been teaching my 2.2 yr old son 3 languages since birth. I speak 60/40 Chinese/English to him and my wife speaks 100% Japanese to him. We only let him watch around 1 hr of TV a day, a mix of 3 languages too. So far, he's vocabulary is only ba(dad), ma, and go (throw toy for our dog to fetch). I wonder if his confusion over the 3 languages pay the major part for his late speaking abilities, or if he got too much of my left brain genes, or a bit of both. Anyone here with experience teaching their kids 3+ languages since birth? What was their speaking ability like around this age?
- davyjones 12y ago
  Multilingual family here. All of us speak 3+ languages (English, Japanese and our native language). Our son is proficient in all three though a bit short on vocab in Japanese for a 6 year old. By 2.5, he was code switching comfortably and had a vocab on numbers till 20, "bandaid", and other usual stuff (food, colours, etc.).
- michah 12y ago
  We have two boys who are tri-lingual (thai, german, english). The essential thing is that the kid makes the association: one person = one language If you speak both English and Chinese to your son, he might be later confused on what words are from which language. I would recommend you only speak Chinese to him. For our kids, English is now their strongest language but it was only taught by their 'environment' i.e. kindergarten / school and they started with English only at age 2-3. Now they talk English with each other (before they went through a period in which they talked German or Thai with each other). So you should not underestimate the 'environment language'. Also, you might consider having some other relatives speaking certain specific languages with your son (e.g. grandparents). This could reinforce their language skills. Personally, I do not believe that learning languages from TV is effective. Learning languages is about relationships and interaction. I think the 1 hr per day would be better spend on interacting with your son in the respective language, e.g. by playing memory game etc. Regarding late development of speaking. We did not experience this with our kids. But they might be a bit delayed when learning to read and write because of different phonetic rules of the respective languages.
davyjones 12y ago
If you want a really really good workout, practice writing with your non-dominant hand.
- sumbulagha 12y ago
  I would also suggest switching to masturbating with your non-dominant hand for starters.

90 points by Libertatea 12y ago

kitd 12y ago

I attribute much of my expertise at software development to learning languages at school. Translating a piece of text from one language to another consists of abstracting the core ideas and meaning from the text using the first language and reimplementing them in a natural way in the second. This is a very similar mental process to taking real-world concepts and reimplementing them in software. Among the languages I learnt was Latin, which is a very "elegant" language. Ie, it conveys much meaning in few words. Being able to do the same in software still gives me a buzz after 25 years.

melling 12y ago
Honestly, I'm not sure computer programming is even remotely related to language learning. If it were we would probably see more evidence. Anyway, I taught myself how to program while I was in high school, a few decades ago. Learning Spanish probably took me a decade and I never really got it until I immersed myself by studying in Guatemala for 10 weeks then backpacking to Argentina over the next several months. Actually, I considered myself good by Colombia. People didn't respond in English and I didn't have to repeat myself.
- RevRal 12y ago
  All human languages consist of syntax and phonetics. Programming languages act as an intermediary between human intelligence and machine intelligence. We almost always require the language aspect of programming to communicate with computer hardware. It is a link for compiling syntax between both the human mind and the computer mind. We need a common means to compile information, just like communicating ideas between people. Programming languages are exactly the same thing as traditional spoken language. I'll argue that to parse any language requires a specific cognitive skill. Ever sentence diagram, look up a word in the dictionary, or look up what specific programming "words" do in a computer?
walterbell 12y ago
Perl & linguistics, http://world.std.com/~swmcd/steven/perl/linguistics.html http://world.std.com/~swmcd/steven/perl/linguistics.html
memracom 12y ago
I feel the same about Latin's elegance which I learned in the 70s in high school. More recently I have mastered Russian and find the same kind of elegance and ability to convey a lot in a few words. There are all kinds of two word and four word sentences used by Russian people as a kind of poetic shorthand about life's situations. And Russians, young and old, men and women, professional and blue-collar, have a love of great poetry and lyrics. They will often write their own and share with others as a toast, or just an impromptu performance at a party. I recommend learning Russian, which is much easier than English to learn, partly because its grammar is a lot simpler than Latin (or Romance languages) while at the same time having a much more regular vocabulary than English. I think one reason why the authors chose language learning as an example is that mastering a language, even part way, is a long term commitment over many years, and that it is the frequent and long term effort that has the effect on the brain.

tokenadult 12y ago

I could have a big-time bias toward believing this headline is true as written. (See my user profile here on Hacker News for more details about my language studies.) But I wonder if the really generalizable finding is simply that adult learners taking on a new challenging learning topic prompt their brains to grow and stay flexible longer. For me, after learning a lot of natural human languages, brushing up and extending my knowledge of mathematics for a career change seemed to provide a fair amount of intellectual growth. Maybe now it's time for me to take up music lessons or an active team sport like soccer. There is always time to learn something new, and there seem to be a lot of benefits from learning almost anything.

drcomputer 12y ago
I personally seek new, ridiculous, absurd, positive things to learn that no one has written about. Sometimes I feel like I get a touch of it, the more careful and in control I am with writing code. Life is fun when it's positive and unpredictable.

madnan 12y ago

I wonder if learning different programming languages does the same? Or as the comment earlier states, is it just a matter of challenging yourself and learning new things that does the same?

geekam 12y ago

Is there a certain way that languages are supposed to be learnt to maximize brain workout? In other words, does one way of learning a new language benefit more than the other? I use Duolingo for learning new language(s).

melling 12y ago
Many people claim that spaced repetition systems are the best way to learn, in general. Anki is a well known app that uses it. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition https://ankiweb.net https://ankiweb.net I believe Duolingo uses this technique to some extent. By the way, I've been dabbling with iOS language learning apps. I've been trying to add simple games to help with the repetition that's required to learn a new language. Plus, I recently add a thousand images so people can learn by associating the foreign word with a picture. I think it can be better than associating the word with your native language. I've built apps for several languages (French, German, Italian,Russian,...). Here's my Spanish app: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?... I also started building a language site to gather my notes in one place and try out new ideas: http://thespanishsite.com http://thespanishsite.com
- Kronopath 12y ago
  Spaced repetition is excellent for building vocabulary and learning new words. I'm less convinced of its effectiveness for more subtle things like grammar and sentence structure—those are the kinds of things that don't fit well on a flashcard. I'd say those things are more well-developed through deliberate practice and interactions with other speakers of the language. I'll throw out a recommendation for Memrise (http://memrise.com http://memrise.com) as well.
- michah 12y ago
  Yes, I also recommend spaced repetition systems. I made good progress with a webapp called VocLab (http://www.voclab.com/ http://www.voclab.com/). Once you studied for a while you can track your learning progress with some detailed statistics and then tweak your forgetting curve to make sure the words are presented at the right time.

chipuni 12y ago

The article seems to contradict itself. "Of the subjects learning the new vocabulary, those who were more successful in attaining the information showed a more connected brain network than both the less successful participants and those who did not learn the new vocabulary." Those who were successful showed a real improvement. But what of those who weren't successful? "The researchers also found that the participants who were successful learners had a more connected network than the other participants even before learning took place." So... people could be grouped into success or failure even before the learning. Those who weren't genetically set up for it, got little advantage.

didibus 12y ago
I thought the same thing, I didn't see anything in the article that mentioned that learning a new language improved your brain, unless you already had a very good and connected brain to learn the language. Maybe we can infer that if you try to learn somethign which you don't have the brain capacity to learn, it will be of no use. But if you try and learn something at your level of brain capacity, it will improve your brain. Therefore, to improve your brain you need to challenge it everytime with something it's capable of solving. Sounds a lot like it's saying, just actively practice your brain.

walterbell 12y ago

Interlinear (2 or 3 different languages in alternate line) versions of ancient religious texts are a good learning tool, because the source text has received much translator attention over time. Foreign-language bibles were one of the tools used by the inimitable sci-fi writer R.A. Lafferty (http://ralafferty.org http://ralafferty.org) to gain a reading knowledge of ten languages.

yongjik 12y ago
Only if you learn ancient dead languages, I suppose. Religious texts are seldom updated (because, well, they are sacred) and full of anachronisms. I mean, if you're learning English, would you want to start with this? > Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
- iak8god 12y ago
  Why did you pick a 500yr old translation of that text as an example when there are dozens of popular modern versions? ESV, for example says this: > When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1%3A24-25&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1%3A24-...
  - walterbell 12y ago
    That's a good point, religious texts also provide a git repository for changes in languages (e.g. English) over time.
  - yongjik 12y ago
    Well, first, depending on the language, what you think of as up-to-date translation can be not quite up to date. (The Bible is a huge tome and not frequently re-translated. The target language could have changed perceptibly since the latest translation was made.) Let's look at your "modern" example. Now, I'm not a native English speaker, but I strongly doubt any English speaker of today would use "He took his wife." to mean "He accepted her as his wife." It would most likely be interpreted as "He brought along his wife." or "Person A kidnapped person B's wife." And "knew her not"? Very few people speak like that, and even fewer would mean "did not have sex with her". These little details add up much faster than a native speaker may realize. Perhaps more important is the amount of detail that will never show up in the Bible. Read the entire Bible, and I'm sure you'll never learn what "Never mind, I'm OK.", "Nice to see you again.", or "This section is under construction." means. So, you only learn a small fraction of modern language usage, and you learn it in a mostly anachronistic fashion.

facepalm 12y ago

Quote from the second paragraph: "Learning and practicing something, for instance a second language, strengthens the brain" So it is not just languages, but generally learning stuff. Who would have thought...

Estragon 12y ago
Yes, and unless you're planning on an extended stay somewhere you'll put it to use, there are so many alternatives which are likely to be more valuable than learning a language.
- gumby 12y ago
  There are other reasons to learn a language, such as access to its literature. For example, once I left school I was no longer in an "extended stay where I could put it to use" (in this case, Greek and Latin) but the pleasures of the languages and cultures (especially the ancient Greeks who were _weird_) caused me to continue to use them. But learning _anything_ is good for the soul...and as Blake said, there is a universe in a grain of sand.
ekianjo 12y ago
> So it is not just languages, but generally learning stuff. Who would have thought... Yeah, we are in the realm of people trying to demonstrate obvious stuff. LaPalice would be proud.

fuzzythinker 12y ago

I've been teaching my 2.2 yr old son 3 languages since birth. I speak 60/40 Chinese/English to him and my wife speaks 100% Japanese to him. We only let him watch around 1 hr of TV a day, a mix of 3 languages too. So far, he's vocabulary is only ba(dad), ma, and go (throw toy for our dog to fetch). I wonder if his confusion over the 3 languages pay the major part for his late speaking abilities, or if he got too much of my left brain genes, or a bit of both. Anyone here with experience teaching their kids 3+ languages since birth? What was their speaking ability like around this age?

davyjones 12y ago
Multilingual family here. All of us speak 3+ languages (English, Japanese and our native language). Our son is proficient in all three though a bit short on vocab in Japanese for a 6 year old. By 2.5, he was code switching comfortably and had a vocab on numbers till 20, "bandaid", and other usual stuff (food, colours, etc.).
michah 12y ago
We have two boys who are tri-lingual (thai, german, english). The essential thing is that the kid makes the association: one person = one language If you speak both English and Chinese to your son, he might be later confused on what words are from which language. I would recommend you only speak Chinese to him. For our kids, English is now their strongest language but it was only taught by their 'environment' i.e. kindergarten / school and they started with English only at age 2-3. Now they talk English with each other (before they went through a period in which they talked German or Thai with each other). So you should not underestimate the 'environment language'. Also, you might consider having some other relatives speaking certain specific languages with your son (e.g. grandparents). This could reinforce their language skills. Personally, I do not believe that learning languages from TV is effective. Learning languages is about relationships and interaction. I think the 1 hr per day would be better spend on interacting with your son in the respective language, e.g. by playing memory game etc. Regarding late development of speaking. We did not experience this with our kids. But they might be a bit delayed when learning to read and write because of different phonetic rules of the respective languages.

davyjones 12y ago

If you want a really really good workout, practice writing with your non-dominant hand.

sumbulagha 12y ago
I would also suggest switching to masturbating with your non-dominant hand for starters.