7 ms·

If you would have shown me this headline 15 years ago I would have thought it was an onion article. Who would have thought they would have come this far?

click170 12y ago
I'm not so sure, I kind of feel like this is them following Embrace Extend Extinguish, except they realized they moved to step 3 too soon so they're going back to step 2 or 1. I do not have faith that they won't try step 3 again later.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  In a nutshell, that's my problem. Once bitten twice shy. Even so I'm happy that they are moving in this direction, let's hope they do it some more.
- fapjacks 12y ago
  Absolutely. There is zero regard for open source from Microsoft here. At the very least they must be trying to return to the "developers, developers, developers" days. With Bill Gates punching the clock, it's really anybody's guess what the real motivation is here, but it sure as hell isn't all the things we know and love about open source.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
    > Absolutely. There is zero regard for open source from Microsoft here. What would it take for you to say "gosh, now Microsoft has regard for open source!" ? If the answer is "nothing, I'd never say that ever" then you don't have an opinion, you have a fixed religious belief. And how does your threshold for Microsoft differ from the same for Apple. Google, Facebook et al?
    - fapjacks 12y ago
      When its history shows otherwise.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
        What specifically has to be in the history? What yes-or-no test, what action that hasn't already happened? Major projects open-sourced on GitHub under MIT licence? Check. Runs Linux, java and PHP in the Azure data centres? check.
        fapjacks 12y ago
        It sounds like you have a fixed religious belief instead of an opinion. Every day must be infuriating for you! You're too much of a fanboy to consider that Microsoft isn't your friend, or that other people have opinions counter to yours. But I've already put too much food beneath this particular bridge of yours.
        SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
        Hahaha. Projecting much? Microsoft is a company, like many others. Some divisions do things that are friendly and benefit me, sometimes, because they want to sell things. That's realistic. I'm well aware that onions differ, which is why I ask about people’s reasons for holding those opinions, so that I can understand them. Of course, it's equally likely that people will resort to bluster and accusations instead of answers when they really don't have reasons, rather than examine themselves.
stanzheng 12y ago
I would be in disbelief 5 years ago. Its a new microsoft
SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
15 years is a long time. The culture changes because new people coming in have different ideas and upbringing. People that any company recruits have different ideas about OS than they did 20 years ago. For instance, one of the movers here is Scott Guthrie, who joined MS in 1997: 17 years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Guthrie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Guthrie And let's not forget thsi from Hanselman: "I've been here pushing open source and the open web for over 5 years and things are VERY different." http://www.hanselman.com/blog/MicrosoftKilledMyPappy.aspx http://www.hanselman.com/blog/MicrosoftKilledMyPappy.aspx
- personZ 12y ago
  The culture changes because new people coming in have different ideas and upbringing. Market forces and realities impact Microsoft's decisions far more than culture does. The reality of the Microsoft stack right now is that very few people are choosing it as a greenfield option, and those already invested in it are looking at alternatives. Just a few weeks ago I wrote about a new project I was initiating, choosing Java as the platform. Understand that I've been a Microsoft stack developer for many years, but a variety of inertia, platform support, ease of getting setup with the development tools, and trust in the platform reasons made Java the better choice. But this announcement changes the equation to some degree, as have Microsoft's various other opening up directives. Microsoft no longer sets the technology agenda, so choices like this are simply a reaction to that new reality. That isn't being cynical, and the changes are very welcome, but Microsoft didn't just punt the old timers and now they see the light.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
    > Microsoft no longer sets the technology agenda, so choices like this are simply a reaction to that new reality Also very true, the culture didn't "just" change. It's another reason why anyone hating on MS while ignoring Google, Facebook, Apple et al is living in the past.
nas 12y ago
It was a totally different world for development 15 years ago though. These days web applications are taking over what used to be in-house developed Windows apps. Those in-house apps represent a huge amount of software development. I think that market mostly dried up for Microsoft. Linux and open source software rule the web app space. On mobile it is Android and iOS. C# is a nice language, better than Java for sure. Microsoft has a long way to go yet to win back developers (lots of dirty tricks in the 1990s) but at least they are heading the right direction now.
- rmc 12y ago
  It was a totally different world for development 15 years ago though. Yeah, now Microsoft are dead.
zamalek 12y ago
> Who would have thought they would have come this far? The sad thing is: these massive changes are only chipping away at the entrenched opinions. They've been doing this bit by bit over the past few years, yet I keep seeing this[1] kind of stuff at every turn (find my reply here[2] for a true tidbit of irony). We can be a very religious lot at times. [1]: http://compositecode.com/2014/04/09/ive-officially-sent-this-email-over-100-times-to-recruiters-looking-for-net-developers/ http://compositecode.com/2014/04/09/ive-officially-sent-this... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7526525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7526525
felixrieseberg 12y ago
Microsoft person here, all these things you're seeing today have been coming for a while - they always 'felt' right, but with an org of our size and history, you always have to consider every possible scenario. I'm super excited that people here are bold enough to increase speed here. We're all pretty excited :)

click170 12y ago

I'm not so sure, I kind of feel like this is them following Embrace Extend Extinguish, except they realized they moved to step 3 too soon so they're going back to step 2 or 1. I do not have faith that they won't try step 3 again later.

jacquesm 12y ago
In a nutshell, that's my problem. Once bitten twice shy. Even so I'm happy that they are moving in this direction, let's hope they do it some more.
fapjacks 12y ago
Absolutely. There is zero regard for open source from Microsoft here. At the very least they must be trying to return to the "developers, developers, developers" days. With Bill Gates punching the clock, it's really anybody's guess what the real motivation is here, but it sure as hell isn't all the things we know and love about open source.
- SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
  > Absolutely. There is zero regard for open source from Microsoft here. What would it take for you to say "gosh, now Microsoft has regard for open source!" ? If the answer is "nothing, I'd never say that ever" then you don't have an opinion, you have a fixed religious belief. And how does your threshold for Microsoft differ from the same for Apple. Google, Facebook et al?
  - fapjacks 12y ago
    When its history shows otherwise.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
      What specifically has to be in the history? What yes-or-no test, what action that hasn't already happened? Major projects open-sourced on GitHub under MIT licence? Check. Runs Linux, java and PHP in the Azure data centres? check.
      - fapjacks 12y ago
        It sounds like you have a fixed religious belief instead of an opinion. Every day must be infuriating for you! You're too much of a fanboy to consider that Microsoft isn't your friend, or that other people have opinions counter to yours. But I've already put too much food beneath this particular bridge of yours.
        SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
        Hahaha. Projecting much? Microsoft is a company, like many others. Some divisions do things that are friendly and benefit me, sometimes, because they want to sell things. That's realistic. I'm well aware that onions differ, which is why I ask about people’s reasons for holding those opinions, so that I can understand them. Of course, it's equally likely that people will resort to bluster and accusations instead of answers when they really don't have reasons, rather than examine themselves.

stanzheng 12y ago

I would be in disbelief 5 years ago. Its a new microsoft

SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago

15 years is a long time. The culture changes because new people coming in have different ideas and upbringing. People that any company recruits have different ideas about OS than they did 20 years ago. For instance, one of the movers here is Scott Guthrie, who joined MS in 1997: 17 years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Guthrie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Guthrie And let's not forget thsi from Hanselman: "I've been here pushing open source and the open web for over 5 years and things are VERY different." http://www.hanselman.com/blog/MicrosoftKilledMyPappy.aspx http://www.hanselman.com/blog/MicrosoftKilledMyPappy.aspx

personZ 12y ago
The culture changes because new people coming in have different ideas and upbringing. Market forces and realities impact Microsoft's decisions far more than culture does. The reality of the Microsoft stack right now is that very few people are choosing it as a greenfield option, and those already invested in it are looking at alternatives. Just a few weeks ago I wrote about a new project I was initiating, choosing Java as the platform. Understand that I've been a Microsoft stack developer for many years, but a variety of inertia, platform support, ease of getting setup with the development tools, and trust in the platform reasons made Java the better choice. But this announcement changes the equation to some degree, as have Microsoft's various other opening up directives. Microsoft no longer sets the technology agenda, so choices like this are simply a reaction to that new reality. That isn't being cynical, and the changes are very welcome, but Microsoft didn't just punt the old timers and now they see the light.
- SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
  > Microsoft no longer sets the technology agenda, so choices like this are simply a reaction to that new reality Also very true, the culture didn't "just" change. It's another reason why anyone hating on MS while ignoring Google, Facebook, Apple et al is living in the past.

nas 12y ago

It was a totally different world for development 15 years ago though. These days web applications are taking over what used to be in-house developed Windows apps. Those in-house apps represent a huge amount of software development. I think that market mostly dried up for Microsoft. Linux and open source software rule the web app space. On mobile it is Android and iOS. C# is a nice language, better than Java for sure. Microsoft has a long way to go yet to win back developers (lots of dirty tricks in the 1990s) but at least they are heading the right direction now.

rmc 12y ago
It was a totally different world for development 15 years ago though. Yeah, now Microsoft are dead.

zamalek 12y ago

> Who would have thought they would have come this far? The sad thing is: these massive changes are only chipping away at the entrenched opinions. They've been doing this bit by bit over the past few years, yet I keep seeing this[1] kind of stuff at every turn (find my reply here[2] for a true tidbit of irony). We can be a very religious lot at times. [1]: http://compositecode.com/2014/04/09/ive-officially-sent-this-email-over-100-times-to-recruiters-looking-for-net-developers/ http://compositecode.com/2014/04/09/ive-officially-sent-this... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7526525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7526525

felixrieseberg 12y ago

Microsoft person here, all these things you're seeing today have been coming for a while - they always 'felt' right, but with an org of our size and history, you always have to consider every possible scenario. I'm super excited that people here are bold enough to increase speed here. We're all pretty excited :)