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I never said what you want me to defend, so it makes no sense for me to defend it. The person I replied to claimed men controlled the industry. That would req

I never said what you want me to defend, so it makes no sense for me to defend it. The person I replied to claimed men controlled the industry. That would require some sort of cabal (evil or otherwise). I think it is preposterous to suggest such a thing. I never said women are not systematically disfavored because that cabal does not exist. Whether or not women are systematically disfavored is an entirely separate issue. I do not believe we are because my experience has not supported that, and because the low number of women in CS is easily explained without it: women have different interests than men.

tptacek 12y ago
And by "different interests", you mean that women are singularly disinterested in computer science, despite strong representation in other STEM fields and other professional fields with analytical components, including such extremely demanding fields as medicine and corporate law? Some rando upthread accused me of violating Occam's Razor.
- imanaccount247 12y ago
  No, I mean women tend to have a preference for jobs involving people rather than things. This is generally framed as "we need more women in STEM fields", so it seems odd that you feel every other STEM field is peachy and just CS is a problem. If you merely want to steal away the minority of women who are interested in STEM fields from the better options to CS then I'm afraid we might need to reconsider constantly insisting that CS is horrible for women. I do not believe that strategy attracts women very well (the corresponding drop in women in CS seems to support this).
  - tptacek 12y ago
    If women "have a preference for jobs involving people rather than things", why are they so well-represented in chemistry? Is chemistry an especially social science? That's what you want to hang the whole enormous gender gap in CS on? That CS is uniquely antisocial? To the contrary: CS seems especially social compared to the hard sciences --- people work on teams and discuss trivia endlessly in a variety of venues.
    - imanaccount247 12y ago
      You seem to have skipped the "read my post" step and jumped straight to the "reply" step. Women are not "so well-represented in chemistry". As I said, the complaint is generally that women are under represented in STEM fields period, which is why I responded as such. The latter part of my post addresses the "I just want CS to steal the few STEM interested women from chemistry" case.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        I don't understand this response, since the representation of women in chemistry is a fact I believe I introduced to the thread, not something you introduced that I responded to. The participation of women in other STEM fields is very inconvenient to your argument, which you've made clearly and repeatedly, that the gender gap in computer science owes largely to a preference among women to avoid CS.
        imanaccount247 12y ago
        As HN seems to be designed to prevent conversations, I can not reply frequently enough to be wasting my posts on someone who simply does not read them. I do not know how to make my post any clearer. The participation of women in other STEM fields reinforces my argument. Women are a minority across the board. This is why the discussion is always about needing more women in STEM, not just CS specifically. As I said, if you wish to steal away the minority of women interested in STEM fields from other STEM fields, I suggest tackling the problem of feminists loudly proclaiming CS to be sexist all the time. I do not believe that is an effective way to market CS to women.

tptacek 12y ago

And by "different interests", you mean that women are singularly disinterested in computer science, despite strong representation in other STEM fields and other professional fields with analytical components, including such extremely demanding fields as medicine and corporate law? Some rando upthread accused me of violating Occam's Razor.

imanaccount247 12y ago
No, I mean women tend to have a preference for jobs involving people rather than things. This is generally framed as "we need more women in STEM fields", so it seems odd that you feel every other STEM field is peachy and just CS is a problem. If you merely want to steal away the minority of women who are interested in STEM fields from the better options to CS then I'm afraid we might need to reconsider constantly insisting that CS is horrible for women. I do not believe that strategy attracts women very well (the corresponding drop in women in CS seems to support this).
- tptacek 12y ago
  If women "have a preference for jobs involving people rather than things", why are they so well-represented in chemistry? Is chemistry an especially social science? That's what you want to hang the whole enormous gender gap in CS on? That CS is uniquely antisocial? To the contrary: CS seems especially social compared to the hard sciences --- people work on teams and discuss trivia endlessly in a variety of venues.
  - imanaccount247 12y ago
    You seem to have skipped the "read my post" step and jumped straight to the "reply" step. Women are not "so well-represented in chemistry". As I said, the complaint is generally that women are under represented in STEM fields period, which is why I responded as such. The latter part of my post addresses the "I just want CS to steal the few STEM interested women from chemistry" case.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      I don't understand this response, since the representation of women in chemistry is a fact I believe I introduced to the thread, not something you introduced that I responded to. The participation of women in other STEM fields is very inconvenient to your argument, which you've made clearly and repeatedly, that the gender gap in computer science owes largely to a preference among women to avoid CS.
      - imanaccount247 12y ago
        As HN seems to be designed to prevent conversations, I can not reply frequently enough to be wasting my posts on someone who simply does not read them. I do not know how to make my post any clearer. The participation of women in other STEM fields reinforces my argument. Women are a minority across the board. This is why the discussion is always about needing more women in STEM, not just CS specifically. As I said, if you wish to steal away the minority of women interested in STEM fields from other STEM fields, I suggest tackling the problem of feminists loudly proclaiming CS to be sexist all the time. I do not believe that is an effective way to market CS to women.