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Don't listen to this guy, you don't need a degree (unless you're trying to be a doctor or lawyer). Most people are better off with a degree in the same sense th

Don't listen to this guy, you don't need a degree (unless you're trying to be a doctor or lawyer). Most people are better off with a degree in the same sense that most people are better off taking an offer from Google over pursuing a startup, but neither choice is unequivocally better than the other. Going to university is obviously the safer route, but not necessarily the best choice for you. And you can always go to university later in life if you want. Most people who espouse the necessity of a degree completely neglect the opportunity cost of obtaining one. Even if you pick one of the more practical majors (eg. computer science), you're spending 4 years and paying anywhere from $30-200k to learn information, much of it outdated and useless to employers/you, that you could learn for free online or at a job. Of course if you're going to dick around and do nothing for 4 years, it's probably better to go to school. But it's very well possible that the 4 years of experience you get will put you in a much better position than a useless liberal arts grad with a fancy piece of paper and $50k in debt. It'll certainly force you to be more self-starting and entrepreneurial. There will always be hiring managers who automatically filter you out because you don't have a degree. That just means you need to (1) develop an impressive portfolio/resume (2) create a strong network (3) be entrepreneurial. None of these require a degree. Good luck. If I were in the Bay Area, I might take you up on that offer.

dkarapetyan 12y ago
I think you're missing the point of what a good education provides. No one says it provides real world experience. What it provides is the ability to think thoroughly and rigorously about things you might not have any actual first-hand experience with. Most people lack that ability and the only way I know of acquiring it is to go to an educational institution and bang your head against hard problems. You will not get this kind of opportunity anywhere outside of an educational institution. The problems you face at work and what could be termed as the industry are of a different kind and flavor and don't exercise the same kind of mental muscle.
WWKong 12y ago
Don't listen to this guy. From personal experience I can tell you that each degree you get will fetch you a positive ROI. A very high multiple over several years. Sure you can skip school and hope to be a startup millionaire. But you can also buy lottery and hope to hit the jackpot. If you are looking for better odds at a successful life, go to school.
- visakanv 12y ago
  Listen to this guy, but listen to everyone else, too. There are all sorts of ways you can improve your odds apart from going to school. There are a lot of things that you can read that will point you in the right direction. There are a lot of interesting things that you can work on. I never went to University or College or whatever you want to call it, and I've had to turn down multiple good job offers to stick with the great one. I'm halfway around the world from SF, but I would be very happy to chat with you, Miles. Hit me up.
kamaal 12y ago
Going to college actually works. And yes that start up can wait. Don't expect yourself to remain young forever. People have to make all kinds of decisions in various parts of their life. And 'lets do a start up' isn't always a answer to all those questions. College education/Degree are a universal filter criteria, trying to prove the whole world wrong isn't going to work, unless you are Einstein. Plus if you are not a US citizen and wish to relocate to US, getting a degree has other added advantages for visa related purposes. And guess what. The very start ups of today won't be hiring your no-degree, whole night awake dorm room hackers. They will be explicitly looking out for some one with a degree. Heck you would be yourself doing that once your very own start up grows to some size. Going by the age related discrimination, and how much lottery factor exists in the start up industry. Getting a degree might be a very good idea.
- JDiculous 12y ago
  Say you need to build an iOS app. Are you going to hire a guy with a CS degree, or a guy with 4 years experience building iOS apps and the portfolio to back it up? I'm not saying that skipping college is a smarter choice (for most people it's not), just that it depends on your situation.
  - kamaal 12y ago
    Personally I would hire some one with 4 years experience. But, programmers don't make decisions. Decisions are made by hiring managers, HR's and other people to whom these kind of things matter.
  - midnightclubbed 12y ago
    How about the guy with the CS degree AND 4 years experience building IOS apps?
dontlistentohim 12y ago
Says the bro that went to Columbia (for a useless masters)... [1] http://www.jdiculous.com/ http://www.jdiculous.com/ [2] http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremysbernier http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremysbernier
WalterBright 12y ago
Back when I worked at Boeing, there were the techs and the engineers. They worked side by side, often doing the same thing. The engineers had degrees, dressed differently, and got paid more. The techs would say that they were doing the same job, why weren't they paid the same? The pragmatic answer is the engineers could do the math to analyze the design, the techs could not. I've never seen anyone learn math on the job. They'll learn everything else but the math. A huge part of an engineering curriculum is math and how to apply it to solve problems. Every engineering exam I had, no matter what the course was ostensibly about, was math.
- JDiculous 12y ago
  I majored in math. If you're doing full-stack web dev (what this guy seems to be doing), it's useless. You'd only need math if you were doing something like machine learning or computer graphics. And like I said, there's nothing you learn in school that you can't learn online. Math classes especially tend to be taught straight from the textbook.
  - WalterBright 12y ago
    Learning how to use calculus to solve engineering problems doesn't come from a math book, it comes from engineering classes. Not knowing math can shut you out from many forms of programming such as (as you suggested) graphics programming. > there's nothing you learn in school that you can't learn online That's pedantically correct, and I'm sure such people do exist, but I've simply never encountered one in 35 years of working in the industry.
    - JDiculous 12y ago
      There's nothing pedantic about it. Out of all the internships/jobs I've had, the far majority of anything I ever did was learned on the job. Often it was without much help or direction, and thus I was forced to teach myself. Although school definitely has its advantages, a huge drawback is that it gets you accustomed to being hand-holded through everything, rather than forcing you to being autodidactic and independent.

dkarapetyan 12y ago

I think you're missing the point of what a good education provides. No one says it provides real world experience. What it provides is the ability to think thoroughly and rigorously about things you might not have any actual first-hand experience with. Most people lack that ability and the only way I know of acquiring it is to go to an educational institution and bang your head against hard problems. You will not get this kind of opportunity anywhere outside of an educational institution. The problems you face at work and what could be termed as the industry are of a different kind and flavor and don't exercise the same kind of mental muscle.

WWKong 12y ago

Don't listen to this guy. From personal experience I can tell you that each degree you get will fetch you a positive ROI. A very high multiple over several years. Sure you can skip school and hope to be a startup millionaire. But you can also buy lottery and hope to hit the jackpot. If you are looking for better odds at a successful life, go to school.

visakanv 12y ago
Listen to this guy, but listen to everyone else, too. There are all sorts of ways you can improve your odds apart from going to school. There are a lot of things that you can read that will point you in the right direction. There are a lot of interesting things that you can work on. I never went to University or College or whatever you want to call it, and I've had to turn down multiple good job offers to stick with the great one. I'm halfway around the world from SF, but I would be very happy to chat with you, Miles. Hit me up.

kamaal 12y ago

Going to college actually works. And yes that start up can wait. Don't expect yourself to remain young forever. People have to make all kinds of decisions in various parts of their life. And 'lets do a start up' isn't always a answer to all those questions. College education/Degree are a universal filter criteria, trying to prove the whole world wrong isn't going to work, unless you are Einstein. Plus if you are not a US citizen and wish to relocate to US, getting a degree has other added advantages for visa related purposes. And guess what. The very start ups of today won't be hiring your no-degree, whole night awake dorm room hackers. They will be explicitly looking out for some one with a degree. Heck you would be yourself doing that once your very own start up grows to some size. Going by the age related discrimination, and how much lottery factor exists in the start up industry. Getting a degree might be a very good idea.

JDiculous 12y ago
Say you need to build an iOS app. Are you going to hire a guy with a CS degree, or a guy with 4 years experience building iOS apps and the portfolio to back it up? I'm not saying that skipping college is a smarter choice (for most people it's not), just that it depends on your situation.
- kamaal 12y ago
  Personally I would hire some one with 4 years experience. But, programmers don't make decisions. Decisions are made by hiring managers, HR's and other people to whom these kind of things matter.
- midnightclubbed 12y ago
  How about the guy with the CS degree AND 4 years experience building IOS apps?

dontlistentohim 12y ago

Says the bro that went to Columbia (for a useless masters)... [1] http://www.jdiculous.com/ http://www.jdiculous.com/ [2] http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremysbernier http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremysbernier

WalterBright 12y ago

Back when I worked at Boeing, there were the techs and the engineers. They worked side by side, often doing the same thing. The engineers had degrees, dressed differently, and got paid more. The techs would say that they were doing the same job, why weren't they paid the same? The pragmatic answer is the engineers could do the math to analyze the design, the techs could not. I've never seen anyone learn math on the job. They'll learn everything else but the math. A huge part of an engineering curriculum is math and how to apply it to solve problems. Every engineering exam I had, no matter what the course was ostensibly about, was math.

JDiculous 12y ago
I majored in math. If you're doing full-stack web dev (what this guy seems to be doing), it's useless. You'd only need math if you were doing something like machine learning or computer graphics. And like I said, there's nothing you learn in school that you can't learn online. Math classes especially tend to be taught straight from the textbook.
- WalterBright 12y ago
  Learning how to use calculus to solve engineering problems doesn't come from a math book, it comes from engineering classes. Not knowing math can shut you out from many forms of programming such as (as you suggested) graphics programming. > there's nothing you learn in school that you can't learn online That's pedantically correct, and I'm sure such people do exist, but I've simply never encountered one in 35 years of working in the industry.
  - JDiculous 12y ago
    There's nothing pedantic about it. Out of all the internships/jobs I've had, the far majority of anything I ever did was learned on the job. Often it was without much help or direction, and thus I was forced to teach myself. Although school definitely has its advantages, a huge drawback is that it gets you accustomed to being hand-holded through everything, rather than forcing you to being autodidactic and independent.