5 ms·

>The problem is realizing how difficult that is to accomplish when the field is almost in a paradox of male control It isn't though. Being mostly male does no

>The problem is realizing how difficult that is to accomplish when the field is almost in a paradox of male control It isn't though. Being mostly male does not make it male controlled. There is no evil cabal of men trying to keep us out. The vast majority of men in the CS world are falling all over themselves trying to cater to women. >but currently this is difficult for women because they are forced into lower self esteem on average than men. What are you basing that on? >Once women feel like they have the same amount of power in society as men As long as we refuse to acknowledge reality, that will never happen. We have more power in society than men. We elect the government, we set the agenda, the laws are catered to us. Men still haven't even escaped from basic gender norms.

jolux 12y ago
>There is no evil cabal of men trying to keep us out. The vast majority of men in the CS world are falling all over themselves trying to cater to women. I'm not saying there's an evil cabal. To the contrary, nearly all of sexism is subconscious. There are a few people that consciously hate women. We call these people misogynists. Most people are sexist. Most people are not, however, misogynists. And falling over themselves trying to cater to women? Why is it, then, that when Jeff Atwood posted his "What Men Can Do" article, and was called out by feminists for mansplaining, (and Mr. Atwood himself was very deliberately sexist in the comments to boot) that the feminists were viciously attacked by a sea of technically oriented white men? >What are you basing that on? Why do you think there are fewer women in STEM fields to begin with? Because they genuinely aren't capable? No, it's because from a very early age most people who are born female are forced into the female gender role. Males are forced into the typical male gender role. And yes, the female gender role includes low self esteem and male dependance. >As long as we refuse to acknowledge reality, that will never happen. We have more power in society than men. We elect the government, we set the agenda, the laws are catered to us. Men still haven't even escaped from basic gender norms. So you make the claim that women have more power in society than men, but go on to claim that you singlehandedly elect the government, set the agenda, AND cater the laws to yourself? Then why exactly is the country in the process of taking a very anti-feminist approach to reproductive rights? Why is government so male dominated? Why are so many fields dominated by one gender, be it male or female? Putting aside the fact that you don't quite understand what gender roles/norms are, is it not concerning to you that government is an extremely male dominated field and yet you believe you're in power? You also seem to imply that I identify as female. I do not.
- imanaccount247 12y ago
  >Most people are sexist And you are basing that on what? >Why is it, then, that when Jeff Atwood posted his "What Men Can Do" article, and was called out by feminists for mansplaining, (and Mr. Atwood himself was very deliberately sexist in the comments to boot) that the feminists were viciously attacked by a sea of technically oriented white men? What an absurdly loaded question. Because feminists were attacking an ally over nothing. "Mansplaining" is not a thing, it is a term made up specifically by sexists to dismiss people they do not wish to be heard. >Why do you think there are fewer women in STEM fields to begin with? Because most women do not wish to be in STEM fields. >No, it's because from a very early age most people who are born female are forced into the female gender role Again, what are you basing that on? All scientific evidence suggests that gender roles are deeply rooted in our genes. There is absolutely no evidence to support the widely discredited nurture only hypothesis. >And yes, the female gender role includes low self esteem and male dependance. No it does not. >Then why exactly is the country in the process of taking a very anti-feminist approach to reproductive rights? It isn't. And why do you conflate "anti-feminist" with anti woman? Most women are not feminists, and do not support feminism. >Why is government so male dominated? Because few women wish to be in government. Notice how often we get elected when we run? >Putting aside the fact that you don't quite understand what gender roles/norms are, is it not concerning to you that government is an extremely male dominated field and yet you believe you're in power? Putting aside your condescending lie, no, why would that concern me? I do not care what sex organs the people I elect posses, I care that they do what we elect them to do. They overwhelmingly introduce, support, and vote for things that women want. Even when they are outright sexist things that women should not be seeking like remedies to the mythological wage gap. >You also seem to imply that I identify as female. I seem to do no such thing.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - dang 12y ago
    > Putting aside your condescending lie No personal attacks on Hacker News, please, regardless of how provocative someone else may have been. All: Please keep this thread civil and substantive.
tptacek 12y ago
Fallacy of the excluded middle, in admitting only to two possibilities: that there's either an "evil cabal of men trying to keep women out" of the industry, or no systemic problem with gender bias in the industry. In fact, the most logical explanation for systemic gender bias in the industry involves virtually no intentionality on the part of men, and is still deeply damaging to women.
- yarou 12y ago
  Well, you could say that proving the existence of this evil cabal is a lot like the devil's proof. Is it so far fetched to believe that a group of old, white males has an incentive to maintain the status quo?
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Yes, that's pretty far-fetched.
- imanaccount247 12y ago
  The most logical explanation requires neither sexism nor damage to women.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    My explanation is a self-reinforcing cycle of privilege accorded unintentionally and often subconsciously to in-group members who can, for instance, breeze through a job interview by looking like their interviewer, sharing the same after-work interests as their interviewers, &c. What's yours? Gingerly, I'd like also to remind you that you haven't responded to the core point of my comment, which is that the argument you chose to rebut the grandparent comment was fallacious on its face. Even if you don't believe in the concept of "privilege", which is a hot-button word, it's still not valid to argue that the lack of an evil cabal means women aren't systematically disfavored by the technology industry.
    - trhway 12y ago

jolux 12y ago

>There is no evil cabal of men trying to keep us out. The vast majority of men in the CS world are falling all over themselves trying to cater to women. I'm not saying there's an evil cabal. To the contrary, nearly all of sexism is subconscious. There are a few people that consciously hate women. We call these people misogynists. Most people are sexist. Most people are not, however, misogynists. And falling over themselves trying to cater to women? Why is it, then, that when Jeff Atwood posted his "What Men Can Do" article, and was called out by feminists for mansplaining, (and Mr. Atwood himself was very deliberately sexist in the comments to boot) that the feminists were viciously attacked by a sea of technically oriented white men? >What are you basing that on? Why do you think there are fewer women in STEM fields to begin with? Because they genuinely aren't capable? No, it's because from a very early age most people who are born female are forced into the female gender role. Males are forced into the typical male gender role. And yes, the female gender role includes low self esteem and male dependance. >As long as we refuse to acknowledge reality, that will never happen. We have more power in society than men. We elect the government, we set the agenda, the laws are catered to us. Men still haven't even escaped from basic gender norms. So you make the claim that women have more power in society than men, but go on to claim that you singlehandedly elect the government, set the agenda, AND cater the laws to yourself? Then why exactly is the country in the process of taking a very anti-feminist approach to reproductive rights? Why is government so male dominated? Why are so many fields dominated by one gender, be it male or female? Putting aside the fact that you don't quite understand what gender roles/norms are, is it not concerning to you that government is an extremely male dominated field and yet you believe you're in power? You also seem to imply that I identify as female. I do not.

imanaccount247 12y ago
>Most people are sexist And you are basing that on what? >Why is it, then, that when Jeff Atwood posted his "What Men Can Do" article, and was called out by feminists for mansplaining, (and Mr. Atwood himself was very deliberately sexist in the comments to boot) that the feminists were viciously attacked by a sea of technically oriented white men? What an absurdly loaded question. Because feminists were attacking an ally over nothing. "Mansplaining" is not a thing, it is a term made up specifically by sexists to dismiss people they do not wish to be heard. >Why do you think there are fewer women in STEM fields to begin with? Because most women do not wish to be in STEM fields. >No, it's because from a very early age most people who are born female are forced into the female gender role Again, what are you basing that on? All scientific evidence suggests that gender roles are deeply rooted in our genes. There is absolutely no evidence to support the widely discredited nurture only hypothesis. >And yes, the female gender role includes low self esteem and male dependance. No it does not. >Then why exactly is the country in the process of taking a very anti-feminist approach to reproductive rights? It isn't. And why do you conflate "anti-feminist" with anti woman? Most women are not feminists, and do not support feminism. >Why is government so male dominated? Because few women wish to be in government. Notice how often we get elected when we run? >Putting aside the fact that you don't quite understand what gender roles/norms are, is it not concerning to you that government is an extremely male dominated field and yet you believe you're in power? Putting aside your condescending lie, no, why would that concern me? I do not care what sex organs the people I elect posses, I care that they do what we elect them to do. They overwhelmingly introduce, support, and vote for things that women want. Even when they are outright sexist things that women should not be seeking like remedies to the mythological wage gap. >You also seem to imply that I identify as female. I seem to do no such thing.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 12y ago
  > Putting aside your condescending lie No personal attacks on Hacker News, please, regardless of how provocative someone else may have been. All: Please keep this thread civil and substantive.

tptacek 12y ago

Fallacy of the excluded middle, in admitting only to two possibilities: that there's either an "evil cabal of men trying to keep women out" of the industry, or no systemic problem with gender bias in the industry. In fact, the most logical explanation for systemic gender bias in the industry involves virtually no intentionality on the part of men, and is still deeply damaging to women.

yarou 12y ago
Well, you could say that proving the existence of this evil cabal is a lot like the devil's proof. Is it so far fetched to believe that a group of old, white males has an incentive to maintain the status quo?
- tptacek 12y ago
  Yes, that's pretty far-fetched.
imanaccount247 12y ago
The most logical explanation requires neither sexism nor damage to women.
- tptacek 12y ago
  My explanation is a self-reinforcing cycle of privilege accorded unintentionally and often subconsciously to in-group members who can, for instance, breeze through a job interview by looking like their interviewer, sharing the same after-work interests as their interviewers, &c. What's yours? Gingerly, I'd like also to remind you that you haven't responded to the core point of my comment, which is that the argument you chose to rebut the grandparent comment was fallacious on its face. Even if you don't believe in the concept of "privilege", which is a hot-button word, it's still not valid to argue that the lack of an evil cabal means women aren't systematically disfavored by the technology industry.
  - trhway 12y ago