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"Simard now believes large trees help out small, younger ones using the fungal internet. Without this help, she thinks many seedlings wouldn't survive." This f

"Simard now believes large trees help out small, younger ones using the fungal internet. Without this help, she thinks many seedlings wouldn't survive." This feels backwards to me. It seems more likely that the fungus is the one doing this, monitoring the condition of trees it touches and equalizing nutrients to maximize their survivability — and its own, since it lives among their roots.

baddox 12y ago
Isn't that a fairly arbitrary philosophical distinction? I'm not sure we can say which organism intends to distribute the resources, since that's a fairly anthropocentric concept. I suppose one could ask whether the relationship between the large tree and the fungus is beneficial to the large tree despite the large tree losing some resources, but the answer seems to be yes.
- devindotcom 12y ago
  Well, if you look at it from the ecosystem's standpoint, it's just a check or balance. But the fungus is, like pretty much all life, acting in its own self-interest. The trees don't even have to "consent" to this — it seems that it's more likely that a fungus is acting as a sort of benevolent parasite than that very different trees have established some kind of cross-platform messaging system that uses a third, very different type of organism as a mediator. It's just simpler to me to think that the fungus is acting on its own and it ends up being a net gain for everyone involved.
  - schiffern 12y ago
    >The trees don't even have to "consent" to this The trees benefit as well — the fungus gives minerals, and in exchange the trees give sugars. It's a transaction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza#Sugar-water.2Fmineral_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza#Sugar-water.2Fminer... >benevolent parasite The word you're looking for is "symbiosis". It seems like you're trying hard to view this through a lens of competition instead of cooperation.
    - devindotcom 12y ago
      I'm aware of the word, I chose to say something different. Why is competition a "lens" I must see through?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- emmelaich 12y ago
  (Speaking of anthropocentrism) The day before I saw this story I remarked to my kids that trees can think. It's just very slow - might take 20 years to form a thought. I'm still not sure how serious I was but it makes you wonder about where and how many qualitatively different levels of "thinking" there are between trees, dogs and us.
tiglionabbit 12y ago
I'm with you. In "The Omnivore's Dilemma", Michael Pollan mentions a type of mushroom that blooms only after a forest fire. It has a symbiotic relationship with the nearby trees, and when they die, it blooms and releases its spores to fly off in search of other places to live.
dragonbonheur 12y ago
That's an interesting point of view. Maybe the Network is the computer after all. Sun had it right. Whatever the message being passed along, the network doesn't seem to be harmed at all. Maybe it is the prime beneficiary of this interconnection and passes chemicals around just to make sure it has the resources of the trees at its disposal in the future. And it manages those resources carefully to ensure they don't use up all the nutrients in the soil too fast. Interesting point of view.
- jacobolus 12y ago
  McLuhan: > Physiologically, man in the normal use of technology (or his variously extended body) is perpetually modified by it and in turn finds new ways of modifying his technology. Man becomes, as it were, the sex organs of the machine world, as the bee of the plant world, enabling it to fecundate and evolve ever new forms.
  - A_COMPUTER 12y ago
    Michael Pollan in one of his speeches, called corn one of the most successful species on Earth via its utilization of humans to facilitate its propagation.

baddox 12y ago

Isn't that a fairly arbitrary philosophical distinction? I'm not sure we can say which organism intends to distribute the resources, since that's a fairly anthropocentric concept. I suppose one could ask whether the relationship between the large tree and the fungus is beneficial to the large tree despite the large tree losing some resources, but the answer seems to be yes.

devindotcom 12y ago
Well, if you look at it from the ecosystem's standpoint, it's just a check or balance. But the fungus is, like pretty much all life, acting in its own self-interest. The trees don't even have to "consent" to this — it seems that it's more likely that a fungus is acting as a sort of benevolent parasite than that very different trees have established some kind of cross-platform messaging system that uses a third, very different type of organism as a mediator. It's just simpler to me to think that the fungus is acting on its own and it ends up being a net gain for everyone involved.
- schiffern 12y ago
  >The trees don't even have to "consent" to this The trees benefit as well — the fungus gives minerals, and in exchange the trees give sugars. It's a transaction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza#Sugar-water.2Fmineral_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza#Sugar-water.2Fminer... >benevolent parasite The word you're looking for is "symbiosis". It seems like you're trying hard to view this through a lens of competition instead of cooperation.
  - devindotcom 12y ago
    I'm aware of the word, I chose to say something different. Why is competition a "lens" I must see through?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
emmelaich 12y ago
(Speaking of anthropocentrism) The day before I saw this story I remarked to my kids that trees can think. It's just very slow - might take 20 years to form a thought. I'm still not sure how serious I was but it makes you wonder about where and how many qualitatively different levels of "thinking" there are between trees, dogs and us.

tiglionabbit 12y ago

I'm with you. In "The Omnivore's Dilemma", Michael Pollan mentions a type of mushroom that blooms only after a forest fire. It has a symbiotic relationship with the nearby trees, and when they die, it blooms and releases its spores to fly off in search of other places to live.

dragonbonheur 12y ago

That's an interesting point of view. Maybe the Network is the computer after all. Sun had it right. Whatever the message being passed along, the network doesn't seem to be harmed at all. Maybe it is the prime beneficiary of this interconnection and passes chemicals around just to make sure it has the resources of the trees at its disposal in the future. And it manages those resources carefully to ensure they don't use up all the nutrients in the soil too fast. Interesting point of view.

jacobolus 12y ago
McLuhan: > Physiologically, man in the normal use of technology (or his variously extended body) is perpetually modified by it and in turn finds new ways of modifying his technology. Man becomes, as it were, the sex organs of the machine world, as the bee of the plant world, enabling it to fecundate and evolve ever new forms.
- A_COMPUTER 12y ago
  Michael Pollan in one of his speeches, called corn one of the most successful species on Earth via its utilization of humans to facilitate its propagation.