7 ms·

The incentives for police in this country are all wrong. It should be illegal for police to profit in any way off of the people they're tasked with protecting.

by panic 12y ago

The incentives for police in this country are all wrong. It should be illegal for police to profit in any way off of the people they're tasked with protecting. They should be paid using tax money based on how well they're doing their actual job.

daurnimator 12y ago
> They should be paid using tax money based on how well they're doing their actual job So.... if the police do a bad job; and crime is rife; we get rid of the police department? Or conversely, if there is no crime, we give more and more money to the police?
- jMyles 12y ago
  Surely there are more granular metrics than that.
- finkel 12y ago
  Those are both extremely fallacious measures of whether the police are doing a good job.
  - Gustomaximus 12y ago
    Fallacious = based on a mistaken belief. synonyms: erroneous, false, untrue, wrong, incorrect, faulty, flawed, inaccurate, inexact, imprecise, mistaken, misinformed, misguided, misleading, deceptive, delusive, delusory, illusory, sophistic, specious, fictitious, spurious, fabricated, distorted, made up, trumped up
- brownbat 12y ago
  Looks like you were buried. I'm not sure why. I read your basic point as, "Sure, we all like to use incentives to encourage good behavior, but there are some special cases where incentives completely backfire. In general, feedback systems arise in public services, especially where funding is correlated with or necessary for performance. e.g., If a middle of the road school starts to falter, you don't strip away all its funding and expect it to start churning out well rounded prodigies. No, you have to roll up your sleeves and do the hard work of figuring out, "ok, what broke down? Is this a morale issue, something with leadership/management, is the cohort of students a bad outlier, did materials quality decline?" Recovery might take more funds, not less. Other public services would see similar results. A struggling fire department shouldn't lose its trucks. A police department that can't effectively deter or arrest criminals needs a little more work than just being driven into bankruptcy. To panic's point, maybe there are other ways to incentivize good behavior. The fruit of the poisonous tree and miranda both operate on the premise that when the cops misbehave, criminals go free. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning For civil asset forfeiture it's trickier, because there's not any criminal when police are doing their job poorly. You almost have to fine them, unless maybe you're willing to release some random offender from prison every time the police cross the line? :) I'm with you, insofar as your point was just, "There aren't simple solutions here, it's a difficult issue."
infinite8s 12y ago
Police aren't actually required to protect anyone (see Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005)), but just to generally maintain social order.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  what happened to the "to protect and to serve" motto then?
  - jMyles 12y ago
    It's just a motto, not a legal doctrine. Presumably it does have some effect. "Don't be evil" seemed to work for a while.
    - ekianjo 12y ago
      Yeah I know what you mean, but mottos are usually helpful to set the tone.
  - fleitz 12y ago
    It's still there, just like North Korea is still, The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea.
  - jrs235 12y ago
    Think of it this way: To protect and serve the government and government officials. (The government is suppose to serve the people/public...)
- jychang 12y ago
  I've never heard of this case, can you explain what it implies?
  - justnow 12y ago
    "In every state of the United States, and in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and Canada, when you call the police, dial 911, and rely on the police to protect you, you are taking a big risk. Under the laws of most of these jurisdictions, the police do not have to respond. They do not have to protect you" Also: "Carrying out the duties of a police or fire department are frequently classified as 'governmental' or 'discretionary'. Under the statutes and case decisions in most states, citizens cannot sue the government for negligently performing (or failing to perform) a 'governmental' or 'discretionary' function." Plus: "The general rule is that governmental entities owe a duty to provide police protection to the public, but not to protect any particular individual" source: Dial 911 and Die, by Richard W. Stevens P.S. I apologize I provide a single source, but I personally haven't read too much on this topic, other than the book cited.
scintill76 12y ago
> based on how well they're doing their actual job Might that also lead to questionable practices to make sure they're perceived to be "doing a good job"? It already happens in the form of ticket quotas.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
pdkl95 12y ago
A big part of the problem is that they have rationally come to the conclusion that there will be no consequences for their actions. If they had any kind of fear that they could realistically get in trouble, almost all of the problem would go away. The problem is operant conditioning[1]. We have created a situation where an action that probably should have gotten most people fired (or worse) is generally ignored (or earns you a paid vacation), and that there is some sort of personal benefit (e.g. margarita machines[2]). We have effectively created a Skinner Box that teaches people that they are above the law. I would expect that most people would eventually be conditioned into socially harmful behaviors if they were placed in a similar situation. None of this behavior will change until we reintroduce some level of fear-of-consequences. Start actually prosecuting misconduct - even the little things - and a lot[3] of the bad behavior will self-correct. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning [2] http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/john-oliver-civil-forfeiture-laws-allow-cops-to-steal-our-stuff-to-buy-toys/ http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/john-oliver-civil-forfeit... [3] not all, of course, but it would certainly be a good start
- jMyles 12y ago
  > most people would eventually be conditioned into socially harmful behaviors if they were placed in a similar situation. I think all people is a fair assessment. Also, there seems to be an incredible amount of mental illness among law enforcement, prison staff, and prosecutorial staff. I listened to all eight audio clips this morning[1], and the gentlemen speaking both seemed to be incredible paranoid, with an "us vs them" mentality about property seizures. They were giggling throughout as if they were happy, but they seemed very paranoid; even delusional. I also watched the clip that made the rounds on reddit today of the police officer pulling over the ambulance. He's obviously, clearly not well. Something is very wrong in this man's life and he needs help. Finally, the guards at Dade Correctional obviously have incredible demons - truly psychotic behavior[3]. From the article: --- Joiner thought he pretty much had seen it all, from guards nearly starving prisoners to death, to taunting and beating them unconscious while handcuffed for sport. He recalls one inmate was paid a pack of cigarettes to attack one sick inmate whose only offense was to ask if their mail could be delivered before bedtime. But Joiner, a 46-year-old convicted killer, saw something that morning that shook even him to his core. On the floor of a small shower stall he was ordered to clean, he saw a single blue canvas shoe and what he later realized was large chunks of human skin. The skin belonged to Darren Rainey, a 50-year-old mentally-ill prisoner whom the guards had handcuffed and locked in the cell the night before. Witnesses and DOC reports indicate Rainey was left in the scalding hot water for hours, allegedly as punishment for defecating in his cell. Joiner, in an interview with the Miami Herald on Tuesday at Columbia Correctional Institution in Lake City, said he could hear Rainey screaming as hot steam filled the unit that night. He also heard the guards taunting Rainey, saying “How do you like your shower?’’ --- It's incredible that we as a society don't manage to provide for the mental health even of our own state officials. These people seem like some of the most poorly adjusted people I've ever heard about. [1] http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicks29/aif-in-doubtatake-ita-behind-closed-doors-4y3w http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicks29/aif-in-doubtatake-ita-behind... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SMpAHJkhm0&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SMpAHJkhm0&feature=youtu.be [3] http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article1972693.html http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/a...

by panic 12y ago

daurnimator 12y ago

> They should be paid using tax money based on how well they're doing their actual job So.... if the police do a bad job; and crime is rife; we get rid of the police department? Or conversely, if there is no crime, we give more and more money to the police?

jMyles 12y ago
Surely there are more granular metrics than that.
finkel 12y ago
Those are both extremely fallacious measures of whether the police are doing a good job.
- Gustomaximus 12y ago
  Fallacious = based on a mistaken belief. synonyms: erroneous, false, untrue, wrong, incorrect, faulty, flawed, inaccurate, inexact, imprecise, mistaken, misinformed, misguided, misleading, deceptive, delusive, delusory, illusory, sophistic, specious, fictitious, spurious, fabricated, distorted, made up, trumped up
brownbat 12y ago
Looks like you were buried. I'm not sure why. I read your basic point as, "Sure, we all like to use incentives to encourage good behavior, but there are some special cases where incentives completely backfire. In general, feedback systems arise in public services, especially where funding is correlated with or necessary for performance. e.g., If a middle of the road school starts to falter, you don't strip away all its funding and expect it to start churning out well rounded prodigies. No, you have to roll up your sleeves and do the hard work of figuring out, "ok, what broke down? Is this a morale issue, something with leadership/management, is the cohort of students a bad outlier, did materials quality decline?" Recovery might take more funds, not less. Other public services would see similar results. A struggling fire department shouldn't lose its trucks. A police department that can't effectively deter or arrest criminals needs a little more work than just being driven into bankruptcy. To panic's point, maybe there are other ways to incentivize good behavior. The fruit of the poisonous tree and miranda both operate on the premise that when the cops misbehave, criminals go free. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning For civil asset forfeiture it's trickier, because there's not any criminal when police are doing their job poorly. You almost have to fine them, unless maybe you're willing to release some random offender from prison every time the police cross the line? :) I'm with you, insofar as your point was just, "There aren't simple solutions here, it's a difficult issue."

infinite8s 12y ago

Police aren't actually required to protect anyone (see Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005)), but just to generally maintain social order.

ekianjo 12y ago
what happened to the "to protect and to serve" motto then?
- jMyles 12y ago
  It's just a motto, not a legal doctrine. Presumably it does have some effect. "Don't be evil" seemed to work for a while.
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    Yeah I know what you mean, but mottos are usually helpful to set the tone.
- fleitz 12y ago
  It's still there, just like North Korea is still, The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea.
- jrs235 12y ago
  Think of it this way: To protect and serve the government and government officials. (The government is suppose to serve the people/public...)
jychang 12y ago
I've never heard of this case, can you explain what it implies?
- justnow 12y ago
  "In every state of the United States, and in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and Canada, when you call the police, dial 911, and rely on the police to protect you, you are taking a big risk. Under the laws of most of these jurisdictions, the police do not have to respond. They do not have to protect you" Also: "Carrying out the duties of a police or fire department are frequently classified as 'governmental' or 'discretionary'. Under the statutes and case decisions in most states, citizens cannot sue the government for negligently performing (or failing to perform) a 'governmental' or 'discretionary' function." Plus: "The general rule is that governmental entities owe a duty to provide police protection to the public, but not to protect any particular individual" source: Dial 911 and Die, by Richard W. Stevens P.S. I apologize I provide a single source, but I personally haven't read too much on this topic, other than the book cited.

scintill76 12y ago

> based on how well they're doing their actual job Might that also lead to questionable practices to make sure they're perceived to be "doing a good job"? It already happens in the form of ticket quotas.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

pdkl95 12y ago

A big part of the problem is that they have rationally come to the conclusion that there will be no consequences for their actions. If they had any kind of fear that they could realistically get in trouble, almost all of the problem would go away. The problem is operant conditioning[1]. We have created a situation where an action that probably should have gotten most people fired (or worse) is generally ignored (or earns you a paid vacation), and that there is some sort of personal benefit (e.g. margarita machines[2]). We have effectively created a Skinner Box that teaches people that they are above the law. I would expect that most people would eventually be conditioned into socially harmful behaviors if they were placed in a similar situation. None of this behavior will change until we reintroduce some level of fear-of-consequences. Start actually prosecuting misconduct - even the little things - and a lot[3] of the bad behavior will self-correct. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning [2] http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/john-oliver-civil-forfeiture-laws-allow-cops-to-steal-our-stuff-to-buy-toys/ http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/john-oliver-civil-forfeit... [3] not all, of course, but it would certainly be a good start

jMyles 12y ago
> most people would eventually be conditioned into socially harmful behaviors if they were placed in a similar situation. I think all people is a fair assessment. Also, there seems to be an incredible amount of mental illness among law enforcement, prison staff, and prosecutorial staff. I listened to all eight audio clips this morning[1], and the gentlemen speaking both seemed to be incredible paranoid, with an "us vs them" mentality about property seizures. They were giggling throughout as if they were happy, but they seemed very paranoid; even delusional. I also watched the clip that made the rounds on reddit today of the police officer pulling over the ambulance. He's obviously, clearly not well. Something is very wrong in this man's life and he needs help. Finally, the guards at Dade Correctional obviously have incredible demons - truly psychotic behavior[3]. From the article: --- Joiner thought he pretty much had seen it all, from guards nearly starving prisoners to death, to taunting and beating them unconscious while handcuffed for sport. He recalls one inmate was paid a pack of cigarettes to attack one sick inmate whose only offense was to ask if their mail could be delivered before bedtime. But Joiner, a 46-year-old convicted killer, saw something that morning that shook even him to his core. On the floor of a small shower stall he was ordered to clean, he saw a single blue canvas shoe and what he later realized was large chunks of human skin. The skin belonged to Darren Rainey, a 50-year-old mentally-ill prisoner whom the guards had handcuffed and locked in the cell the night before. Witnesses and DOC reports indicate Rainey was left in the scalding hot water for hours, allegedly as punishment for defecating in his cell. Joiner, in an interview with the Miami Herald on Tuesday at Columbia Correctional Institution in Lake City, said he could hear Rainey screaming as hot steam filled the unit that night. He also heard the guards taunting Rainey, saying “How do you like your shower?’’ --- It's incredible that we as a society don't manage to provide for the mental health even of our own state officials. These people seem like some of the most poorly adjusted people I've ever heard about. [1] http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicks29/aif-in-doubtatake-ita-behind-closed-doors-4y3w http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicks29/aif-in-doubtatake-ita-behind... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SMpAHJkhm0&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SMpAHJkhm0&feature=youtu.be [3] http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article1972693.html http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/a...