5 ms·

Dozens? Thousands of times a day, surely - if not tends of thousands. There are nearly 400 million people between the two countries. Regardless, yes, this is t

by psycr 12y ago

Dozens? Thousands of times a day, surely - if not tends of thousands. There are nearly 400 million people between the two countries. Regardless, yes, this is to be expected. But reality isn't normative - it just is. The question is, ought it be that way.

maerF0x0 12y ago
also, we can't confound "normative" with "moral" .
- simplemath 12y ago
  shouldn't? yes. Can't? Unfortunately, no.
  - maerF0x0 12y ago
    haha, nice.
borski 12y ago
The answer is, I believe, yes. The booking officer had no idea why Aaron was there, for a while, and later discovered it was for B&E, a serious crime. The entire time, the officers' job is to protect themselves and their fellow officers. If Aaron had been a worse kid, and they had been less extensive, it is possible one of them may have been hurt. This is unpopular, but I believe it to be true, I think. Aaron was a great kid, but the majority of people brought into the station aren't.
- vdaniuk 12y ago
  > The entire time, the officers' job is to protect themselves and their fellow officers. >This is unpopular, but I believe it to be true, I think. Your belief is simply wrong. The risk of dying in a line of duty for cops is quite low, being a LE is not even in the first top 10 dangerous professions. Most deaths are due to the traffic incidents.[0] >Aaron was a great kid, but the majority of people brought into the station aren't. Who defines that? Police? Nice circular logic you've got there. Until the court says otherwise they are citizens whose rights should be upheld as much as possible. Also it's great that US has such upstanding citizens as you, protecting the real opressed minority - policemen. If Aaron would be wearing his shoes, who knows what grave harm could he do to a police station full of armed cops? EDIT I digged a little deeper and found out that number of police deaths in the line of duty during latest years had been around 100/year[1]. At least 1450 were people killed by police since May 2013[2]. I don't wish that on you but there would be a certain ironical justice if police apologists like you would experience non-lethal brutality themeselves. Maybe then you would learn something. [0]http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/28/how-dangerous-is-police-work/ http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/28/how-dangerous-is-polic... [1]http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.htm... [2]http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/another-much-higher-count-of-police-homicides/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/another-much-higher-count...
  - bane 12y ago
    So for police it's a binary outcome? Either they handle a suspect and everthing is peaches and cream or they die? You need to go spend some time in a police station, do some ride-alongs. Here's a number, in 2012 ~53,000 officers were assaulted in the line of duty. Those assaults could have happened from arresting a dangerous gunman to booking a 130 pound 24 year old for B&E. It's important to have perspective about what police do and deal with everyday. They aren't acting irrationally. There really are reasons for why they do what they do, even if we disagree with their actions.
    - vdaniuk 12y ago
      >It's important to have perspective about what police do and deal with everyday. They aren't acting irrationally. Sure they aren't. Most of them are psychopaths(yes,"psychopath" term is not a perfect model for describing personality disorders, deal with it) who are using their privileged position and monopoly on violence to satisfy their urge for power and control. It is perfectly rational if you understand that police are NOT there to "serve and protect" you and not legally obliged to protect you and are blue wall of silence covers up "the bad apples".
      - bane 12y ago
        > Most of them are psychopaths That's quite a claim. Demonstrate it.
        vdaniuk 12y ago
        I certainly can't do it in a rigorous, scientific manner. However, my line of thinking is as follows. Persons with antisocial personality diaorder ( a correct term) fail to exhibit guilt, empathy or admit the responsibility for their actions among other factors. That is consistent with general, averaged cop behavior in US and existence of blue wall of silence that effectively prohibits making those accountable for multiple transgressions accountable. But yeah, I was too irritated by apologists and didn't use enough guarding. I'll admit that I have no proof of "most" police officers being psychopathic. I am sure many of them are, though.
- coldtea 12y ago
  >This is unpopular, but I believe it to be true, I think. Amazing how other western (and Asian, etc, not sure) countries managed to do it, with far more civility and far less incidents of officers being hurt too, then.
  - roel_v 12y ago
    Yeah uhm, sorry to be that guy, but [citation needed].
    - coldtea 12y ago
      Perhaps rather some [travelling/living abroad needed]?

by psycr 12y ago

maerF0x0 12y ago

also, we can't confound "normative" with "moral" .

simplemath 12y ago
shouldn't? yes. Can't? Unfortunately, no.
- maerF0x0 12y ago
  haha, nice.

borski 12y ago

The answer is, I believe, yes. The booking officer had no idea why Aaron was there, for a while, and later discovered it was for B&E, a serious crime. The entire time, the officers' job is to protect themselves and their fellow officers. If Aaron had been a worse kid, and they had been less extensive, it is possible one of them may have been hurt. This is unpopular, but I believe it to be true, I think. Aaron was a great kid, but the majority of people brought into the station aren't.

vdaniuk 12y ago
> The entire time, the officers' job is to protect themselves and their fellow officers. >This is unpopular, but I believe it to be true, I think. Your belief is simply wrong. The risk of dying in a line of duty for cops is quite low, being a LE is not even in the first top 10 dangerous professions. Most deaths are due to the traffic incidents.[0] >Aaron was a great kid, but the majority of people brought into the station aren't. Who defines that? Police? Nice circular logic you've got there. Until the court says otherwise they are citizens whose rights should be upheld as much as possible. Also it's great that US has such upstanding citizens as you, protecting the real opressed minority - policemen. If Aaron would be wearing his shoes, who knows what grave harm could he do to a police station full of armed cops? EDIT I digged a little deeper and found out that number of police deaths in the line of duty during latest years had been around 100/year[1]. At least 1450 were people killed by police since May 2013[2]. I don't wish that on you but there would be a certain ironical justice if police apologists like you would experience non-lethal brutality themeselves. Maybe then you would learn something. [0]http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/28/how-dangerous-is-police-work/ http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/28/how-dangerous-is-polic... [1]http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.htm... [2]http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/another-much-higher-count-of-police-homicides/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/another-much-higher-count...
- bane 12y ago
  So for police it's a binary outcome? Either they handle a suspect and everthing is peaches and cream or they die? You need to go spend some time in a police station, do some ride-alongs. Here's a number, in 2012 ~53,000 officers were assaulted in the line of duty. Those assaults could have happened from arresting a dangerous gunman to booking a 130 pound 24 year old for B&E. It's important to have perspective about what police do and deal with everyday. They aren't acting irrationally. There really are reasons for why they do what they do, even if we disagree with their actions.
  - vdaniuk 12y ago
    >It's important to have perspective about what police do and deal with everyday. They aren't acting irrationally. Sure they aren't. Most of them are psychopaths(yes,"psychopath" term is not a perfect model for describing personality disorders, deal with it) who are using their privileged position and monopoly on violence to satisfy their urge for power and control. It is perfectly rational if you understand that police are NOT there to "serve and protect" you and not legally obliged to protect you and are blue wall of silence covers up "the bad apples".
    - bane 12y ago
      > Most of them are psychopaths That's quite a claim. Demonstrate it.
      - vdaniuk 12y ago
        I certainly can't do it in a rigorous, scientific manner. However, my line of thinking is as follows. Persons with antisocial personality diaorder ( a correct term) fail to exhibit guilt, empathy or admit the responsibility for their actions among other factors. That is consistent with general, averaged cop behavior in US and existence of blue wall of silence that effectively prohibits making those accountable for multiple transgressions accountable. But yeah, I was too irritated by apologists and didn't use enough guarding. I'll admit that I have no proof of "most" police officers being psychopathic. I am sure many of them are, though.
coldtea 12y ago
>This is unpopular, but I believe it to be true, I think. Amazing how other western (and Asian, etc, not sure) countries managed to do it, with far more civility and far less incidents of officers being hurt too, then.
- roel_v 12y ago
  Yeah uhm, sorry to be that guy, but [citation needed].
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Perhaps rather some [travelling/living abroad needed]?