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I don't think "the ruling Communist Party of China celebrates 60 years in power" would be a good title. The current governance of China is communist in name o

I don't think "the ruling Communist Party of China celebrates 60 years in power" would be a good title. The current governance of China is communist in name only and has morphed substantially multiple times over those 60 years.

gaius 17y ago
Agreed - the ruling totalitarian government would be more accurate.
- jhancock 17y ago
  I've lived in Shanghai for 10 years. Very little that Beijing tells Shanghai to do has an impact on daily life there. For the most part, Shanghai controls Shanghai. Governance in China is fragmented, hierarchical, and networked. I built a large workflow system for the Shanghai gov in 2001. To build such a system, I had to understand decision processes, chains of command, etc. If there was an "org chart" I never saw it, but had to piece it together through inputs from many government departments. The structures that exist follow patterns well understood by those in power (and to varying degree by many in society). These processes are more complex then Western business or government structure and rarely dictatorial. Decision takes a long time to incubate while various interests align. Once consensus is reached, they move forward in lock-step. An outsider may view these actions as the result of a dictatorial process. I can assure you they are not.
  - gaius 17y ago
    I'm curious - could you for instance walk the streets of Shanghai in a t-shirt openly critical of the government? 'Cos people in London do it all the time...
    - gloob 17y ago
      False dichotomy. There is a difference between "totalitarian dictatorship" and "society with relatively low levels of political freedom". The former requires the latter, but not every instance of the latter is an instance of the former.
    - halo 17y ago
      Well, anywhere in London except Parliament Square without prior permission as you'd be arrested for doing an unauthorised protest.
      - jhancock 17y ago
        The U.S. Constitution's first amendment provides for "the right of the people peaceably to assemble". Try doing this in front of the White House without a permit. In Atlanta, Georgia, for example, the mayor has veto powers over permit requests. Try waving the constitution in front of an Atlanta police office as he's dragging you to jail.
    - jhancock 17y ago
      Actually yes, you can walk around Shanghai with ugly words about the government. As far as I know there are no laws against it. There are laws against plotting to overthrow the gov or causing civil unrest similar to the ones that exist in the U.S. or UK. I just fact checked this with my Chinese wife. She has a degree in Chinese Law. Could someone use your t-shirt to concoct a case against you relative to these laws? Maybe. But the Chinese police have bigger things to worry about. I have heard about people in the U.S. being tossed off airplanes and detained due to the content of their t-shirts. The Chinese Internet has massive amounts of chatter expressing anger at the government. Some of it gets removed by the gov and site management. But not all of it. There is plenty of juicy stuff to read online.
- garply 17y ago
  When I hear the word 'totalitarian' or 'dictatorship' I think of Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany. If contemporary China is a dictatorship, then apparently life under a dictatorship isn't as bad as I was raised to believe and I need to review my evaluations of those regimes. I used to live in San Francisco and now live in Beijing - my ability to live my life as I see fit has been relatively unchanged.
  - gaius 17y ago
    If you were an ethnic German, life in Germany in the 1930s was pretty good too. Bierkellers, girls in dirndl dresses, finally after the setbacks of WW1 the German people were back on their feet, etc etc. If you're an ethnic Han, or a Westerner, life in China could be pretty good too.

gaius 17y ago

Agreed - the ruling totalitarian government would be more accurate.

jhancock 17y ago
I've lived in Shanghai for 10 years. Very little that Beijing tells Shanghai to do has an impact on daily life there. For the most part, Shanghai controls Shanghai. Governance in China is fragmented, hierarchical, and networked. I built a large workflow system for the Shanghai gov in 2001. To build such a system, I had to understand decision processes, chains of command, etc. If there was an "org chart" I never saw it, but had to piece it together through inputs from many government departments. The structures that exist follow patterns well understood by those in power (and to varying degree by many in society). These processes are more complex then Western business or government structure and rarely dictatorial. Decision takes a long time to incubate while various interests align. Once consensus is reached, they move forward in lock-step. An outsider may view these actions as the result of a dictatorial process. I can assure you they are not.
- gaius 17y ago
  I'm curious - could you for instance walk the streets of Shanghai in a t-shirt openly critical of the government? 'Cos people in London do it all the time...
  - gloob 17y ago
    False dichotomy. There is a difference between "totalitarian dictatorship" and "society with relatively low levels of political freedom". The former requires the latter, but not every instance of the latter is an instance of the former.
  - halo 17y ago
    Well, anywhere in London except Parliament Square without prior permission as you'd be arrested for doing an unauthorised protest.
    - jhancock 17y ago
      The U.S. Constitution's first amendment provides for "the right of the people peaceably to assemble". Try doing this in front of the White House without a permit. In Atlanta, Georgia, for example, the mayor has veto powers over permit requests. Try waving the constitution in front of an Atlanta police office as he's dragging you to jail.
  - jhancock 17y ago
    Actually yes, you can walk around Shanghai with ugly words about the government. As far as I know there are no laws against it. There are laws against plotting to overthrow the gov or causing civil unrest similar to the ones that exist in the U.S. or UK. I just fact checked this with my Chinese wife. She has a degree in Chinese Law. Could someone use your t-shirt to concoct a case against you relative to these laws? Maybe. But the Chinese police have bigger things to worry about. I have heard about people in the U.S. being tossed off airplanes and detained due to the content of their t-shirts. The Chinese Internet has massive amounts of chatter expressing anger at the government. Some of it gets removed by the gov and site management. But not all of it. There is plenty of juicy stuff to read online.
garply 17y ago
When I hear the word 'totalitarian' or 'dictatorship' I think of Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany. If contemporary China is a dictatorship, then apparently life under a dictatorship isn't as bad as I was raised to believe and I need to review my evaluations of those regimes. I used to live in San Francisco and now live in Beijing - my ability to live my life as I see fit has been relatively unchanged.
- gaius 17y ago
  If you were an ethnic German, life in Germany in the 1930s was pretty good too. Bierkellers, girls in dirndl dresses, finally after the setbacks of WW1 the German people were back on their feet, etc etc. If you're an ethnic Han, or a Westerner, life in China could be pretty good too.