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> It seems the surveillance state is more often used against us than for us for a variety of reasons, mostly due to corruption, which we still don't have a fix

> It seems the surveillance state is more often used against us than for us for a variety of reasons, mostly due to corruption, which we still don't have a fix for There is no fix for "corruption". Imagine there's a ruler with only one subject. Would someone inevitably ask him for a favour? "Could you have your peon mow my lawn? -I'll buy you a beer some time!" Would the ruler want more subjects? -Of course! It just means more benefits for him, more opportunities for making money at his subjects' expense! The possibilities are limitless! Now take a bunch of rulers with 320 million subjects. Would Comcast ask them to make it difficult to compete with them? Competition is bothersome you know. It forces you to provide better quality at lower prices, even though you'd much rather just fleece a captive audience! "Corruption" is a bit of a misnomer. It sounds like something is wrong, but actually it's just an element of a system with rulers and subjects working as intended. > There's no shortage of stories of homeowners or landlords with videos of vandals and robbers only to be told to piss off. The police don't want to mess with the gangs unless they have to or it looks bad if there are too many minority arrests that month. You're seeing another aspect of the system working as intended. If you're a ruler, do you really care about your subjects' well-being? -Of course not. You'll pretend you do because you need them to refrain from overthrowing you, but your subjects are just tools to you. Your "Royal Guard" (=the police) are meant to protect your power and to enforce your edicts, not to help your subjects. They behave accordingly.

dropit_sphere 12y ago
This is half a truth, in that incentives do influence people's behavior: > There is no fix for "corruption". But not the whole truth, as the West is far less corrupt than, say, Bangladesh. We're under the impression that it's all because of our political systems and so are eager to teach the rest of the world Political Science 101 at gunpoint, convinced that if they only understood then they'd all be liberal democracies. But it's not their understanding of game theory that's flawed, it's ours. As we've found out, it's not just a systems problem. Western Civilization? We didn't build that. There is, at least, a lot of residual faith in institutions built up over the last 800 years ago. And also some unabashed patriotism---the quiet kind that has you pay your taxes fully when you could perhaps pay a bit less and get away with it.
- honeybooboo123 12y ago
  > But not the whole truth, as the West is far less corrupt than, say, Bangladesh. The current degree and overtness of corruption in a particular area is completely irrelevant. The point is the very nature of political power: Its only use case is to gain at other people's expense. That's it. Political power implies intervention in what people would otherwise do in their mutually beneficial, voluntary exchanges and arrangements. Want to charge a fee for driving people from A to B? -You have to get a $X-hundred-thousand license to do that. If you don't, you will be punished, by force if "necessary". Who benefits? -The state-supported taxi cartel of course: now their drivers are debt slaves and profit margins remain higher than otherwise. Note all those foreign governments protecting their taxi-cartel buddies from Uber. Rulers want subjects because they benefit from them. Subjects are resources, like human livestock to be milked. And oh boy, milk us they do. Sorry but I'm not sure how to address the rest of your post. Feel free to ask something or make some specific claims.
  - dropit_sphere 12y ago
    >Rulers want subjects because they benefit from them. Subjects are resources, like human livestock to be milked. And oh boy, milk us they do. If only they understood that! That would not be the worst case( http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/05/20/the-magic-of-symmetric-sovereignty/ http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/05/20/the-...) >That's it. Political power implies intervention in what people would otherwise do in their mutually beneficial, voluntary exchanges and arrangements. Remember, though, that not all voluntary exchanges and agreements are mutually beneficial (paycheck advances); or if they are, there may be an unknowing third party suffering some nasty externalities (I will sell you an extra-polluting car for only $1000!). Is this not a non-exploitive use case?
    - honeybooboo123 12y ago
      > If only they understood that! That would not be the worst case( http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/05/20/the-... http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/05/20/the-...) Please make a specific claim. I don't know how to address the nonsense you linked to. > Remember, though, that not all voluntary exchanges and agreements are mutually beneficial They are, to both parties involved in them. Otherwise they wouldn't go through with the exchanges, assuming no coercion of course. > there may be an unknowing third party suffering some nasty externalities (I will sell you an extra-polluting car for only $1000!). Is this not a non-exploitive use case? If you sell me an extra-polluting car, you're not exploiting anyone. I value the car higher than the money I'm parting with, because otherwise I wouldn't buy it.
hackuser 12y ago
> There is no fix for "corruption". There is no fix for anything by that reasoning; we'll always have illness, accidents, crime, and browser crashes. We can improve those things significantly though, and we have and we can improve corruption.
- honeybooboo123 12y ago
  > There is no fix for anything by that reasoning; we'll always have illness, accidents, crime Well, the fix for corruption is for no one to have political power. Would you say the fix for illness is to be dead?

dropit_sphere 12y ago

This is half a truth, in that incentives do influence people's behavior: > There is no fix for "corruption". But not the whole truth, as the West is far less corrupt than, say, Bangladesh. We're under the impression that it's all because of our political systems and so are eager to teach the rest of the world Political Science 101 at gunpoint, convinced that if they only understood then they'd all be liberal democracies. But it's not their understanding of game theory that's flawed, it's ours. As we've found out, it's not just a systems problem. Western Civilization? We didn't build that. There is, at least, a lot of residual faith in institutions built up over the last 800 years ago. And also some unabashed patriotism---the quiet kind that has you pay your taxes fully when you could perhaps pay a bit less and get away with it.

honeybooboo123 12y ago
> But not the whole truth, as the West is far less corrupt than, say, Bangladesh. The current degree and overtness of corruption in a particular area is completely irrelevant. The point is the very nature of political power: Its only use case is to gain at other people's expense. That's it. Political power implies intervention in what people would otherwise do in their mutually beneficial, voluntary exchanges and arrangements. Want to charge a fee for driving people from A to B? -You have to get a $X-hundred-thousand license to do that. If you don't, you will be punished, by force if "necessary". Who benefits? -The state-supported taxi cartel of course: now their drivers are debt slaves and profit margins remain higher than otherwise. Note all those foreign governments protecting their taxi-cartel buddies from Uber. Rulers want subjects because they benefit from them. Subjects are resources, like human livestock to be milked. And oh boy, milk us they do. Sorry but I'm not sure how to address the rest of your post. Feel free to ask something or make some specific claims.
- dropit_sphere 12y ago
  >Rulers want subjects because they benefit from them. Subjects are resources, like human livestock to be milked. And oh boy, milk us they do. If only they understood that! That would not be the worst case( http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/05/20/the-magic-of-symmetric-sovereignty/ http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/05/20/the-...) >That's it. Political power implies intervention in what people would otherwise do in their mutually beneficial, voluntary exchanges and arrangements. Remember, though, that not all voluntary exchanges and agreements are mutually beneficial (paycheck advances); or if they are, there may be an unknowing third party suffering some nasty externalities (I will sell you an extra-polluting car for only $1000!). Is this not a non-exploitive use case?
  - honeybooboo123 12y ago
    > If only they understood that! That would not be the worst case( http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/05/20/the-... http://unqualifiedreservations.wordpress.com/2007/05/20/the-...) Please make a specific claim. I don't know how to address the nonsense you linked to. > Remember, though, that not all voluntary exchanges and agreements are mutually beneficial They are, to both parties involved in them. Otherwise they wouldn't go through with the exchanges, assuming no coercion of course. > there may be an unknowing third party suffering some nasty externalities (I will sell you an extra-polluting car for only $1000!). Is this not a non-exploitive use case? If you sell me an extra-polluting car, you're not exploiting anyone. I value the car higher than the money I'm parting with, because otherwise I wouldn't buy it.

hackuser 12y ago

> There is no fix for "corruption". There is no fix for anything by that reasoning; we'll always have illness, accidents, crime, and browser crashes. We can improve those things significantly though, and we have and we can improve corruption.

honeybooboo123 12y ago
> There is no fix for anything by that reasoning; we'll always have illness, accidents, crime Well, the fix for corruption is for no one to have political power. Would you say the fix for illness is to be dead?