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My father-in-law was a mid-level Communist Party official (photo editor of the People's "Liberation" Army newspaper) who knew Mao personally. Years later Mao's

by miked 17y ago

My father-in-law was a mid-level Communist Party official (photo editor of the People's "Liberation" Army newspaper) who knew Mao personally. Years later Mao's people threw him in a concentration camp for "rightists" because he had made a joke about the Great Helmsman. When they ran out of cooking oil they would cook his food in used motor oil. The man they tortured and forced to rat him out never recovered from the shame. My wife and I had dinner with his daughter in Beijing two years ago. She still carries the shame for her father, even today. A little gift from Mao that keeps on giving. They were the lucky ones, of course. The consensus estimate is that 70 million human beings have died so far during the CCP's reign of terror, mostly from starvation. My wife spent much of her youth hungry. She and her friends used to pull the stingers out of honeybees to get a bit of sweetness in their lives. The things little girls do, huh? Not much terror these days of course, unless you're Tibetan, Falun Gong, or an enemy of the state. The strange thing for me, when walking around China, is that the monster's face is on the money. Statues of him are still common. He's the worst murderer who ever lived, and you have to look at him when buying a rose. Isn't life interesting?

est 17y ago
> The consensus estimate is that 70 million human beings have died so far during the CCP's reign of terror, mostly from starvation Yeah, but it's hard to imagine what China actually like in pre-P.R.C times. It's not "end the war, install democracy and go prosper" that easy for an ancient civilization to turn modern. Mao has his faults, and underestimated contributions, but what's more important is whether current and succeeding politicians will learn from history.
lionhearted 17y ago
> They were the lucky ones, of course. The consensus estimate is that 70 million human beings have died so far during the CCP's reign of terror, mostly from starvation. My wife spent much of her youth hungry. She and her friends used to pull the stingers out of honeybees to get a bit of sweetness in their lives. The things little girls do, huh? I dated a Chinese girl for 3 and 1/2 years whose father was sent to a labor camp for a lot of her childhood. I really don't understand how the Communists don't have the same reputation and stigma of the Nazis. They killed over twice as many people, most of them civilians, and did it for twice as long. They ran their countries into the ground in pretty much all meaningful measures, destroying civilizations well known for science, commerce, and innovation. They accomplished almost nothing of value, in any of the areas mankind finds valuable. And they're treated with a mild disdain, but nothing like the Third Reich, where they probably deserve even worse treatment. If anyone doesn't know who Deng Xiaoping is, it's worth reading a little bit about him. He was probably one of the most important and good politicians of the last 100 years. He helped lead China out of the Communist mess they were in, declaring, "It doesn't matter what color the cat is as long as it catches the mouse." Was imprisoned for a while due to his views before taking over and putting China back on the path to being a global power with healthy, happy citizens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping But as a casual historian, I'm still baffled why the Communists don't have the same or worse of a rep than the Nazis - input from knowledgeable people is welcome.
- gaius 17y ago
  I'm still baffled why the Communists don't have the same or worse of a rep than the Nazis The simple answer is that many "intellectuals" in the West find the notion of "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability" very appealing. They "need" to do lots of unproductive (and unrewarded in the West) things such as sit around talking about abstract philosophy, and those poor suckers with "ability" will support them for free. Never mind that the one of the first things real Communists do when they take over is send all the intellectuals for re-eductation...
  - unalone 17y ago
    I like that you're quoting one of Ayn Rand's "Communist" talking points rather than talking about Communism proper. Let's get something straight. There is no Communist-central plan. Russia and China each approached Communism differently. If somebody else were to try Communism, they'd have a completely different approach to it. As it is, the only Communist regimes we talk about are the ones installed by violence, and as a result we get this idea that you can't have Communism without violently murdering people. The smaller communes that manage to last decades without violence, they're the ones we ignore when readying our anti-Red talking points. You're showing a fair spot of anti-intellectualism when you bash abstract philosophy. Who do you think invented capitalism? I'll give you a major hint: He was an abstract philosopher. Adam Smith was just like Karl Marx, only we like him more. Every major idea we've seen in the world stems to some degree from abstract philosophy, as you call it. It's not particularly abstract, mind you, because it has concrete effects on the world. We're not talking Nietzsche, here. Now, let me explain why the Holocaust is really so touted, and why Mao isn't mentioned as much. Partly it's because Germany is a European nation, and the world is still very Euro-centric. In bigger part, however, it's because the Nazis did a pretty good job at its attempt to exterminate the Jewish religion, which, though small, is a pretty major force in the world. People still think Judaism is one of the three major religions in the world, because they like ignoring Hinduism. Jewish people are usually well-educated, hard-working, and ambitious, which is why there's still a disproportionate amount of them in executive positions at companies, in top-notch colleges, and in the literary world. (If we go by the utterly lame judge that is IQ, the average IQ of a Jewish person in the United States is higher than of any other arbitrary demographic, including asian.) There were 18 million Jews when Hitler took power. When his regime was ended, one in three of those Jews were dead. Remember Nazis also killed 5 million Protestants, but nobody cares about that, because there are so many Protestants. Hitler showed a lot of Jewish people the mortality of their faith. In a time when Jews were still hated in most parts of the world—and they were certainly still hated in the 40s—they were dealt an enormous blow. So a lot of well-educated and influential people all took up the cause. We've got literary masterpieces regarding the Holocaust. I can't think of any that have to do with other genocides; if they exist, I haven't heard of them. There's Eli Wiesel's Night, there's the diary of Anne Frank. Authors wrote a slew of kid's books about the subject, so that a lot of us grow up with the Holocaust ingrained in us. Number the Stars; the Devil's Arithmetic. Those are the books used to teach 10-year-olds about morality. It's all Holocaust-based, because many of the best kid's book writers are Jewish. (Even the ones that don't make being Jewish a big part of their writing. My favorite Child's Lit author is Daniel Handler alias Lemony Snicket, one of whose adult books is about the Golem in the Jewish religion.) Finally, we have the fact that World War II is perhaps the best and easiest story ever told. We've got a brilliant military leader and outright psychopath whose childhood is tragic and fascinating, whose seconds-in-command were all rich characters, and whose uniforms were all made by Hugo Boss, still a big name in the fashion industry. There's the famous swastika. Then there are Hitler's allies: Mussolini, who's almost comically corrupt and bad, and Hirohito, the faceless emperor of a nation that was batshit insane when it started fighting and that tortured American soldiers in unspeakable ways. On the other side you have the heroic crippled FDR, and the brilliant procrastinator Churchill, and you've got the morally uneasy compromise with Stalin. It's a made-to-go movie, which is why so many movies are made about it. Whereas World War I was hell, World War II had a very clear villain. And how do we know he's a clear villain? Because he's cooking Jewish people in ovens. So World War II is an easy story, and it all revolves around the Holocaust as proof of our moral superiority. Therefore, the Holocaust gets celebrity attention, which complements nicely all the talented Jewish people who remember the Holocaust because their parents died in it. (I'm saying all this as a kind-of Jew who grew up listening to a different Holocaust survivor each year. Apologies if that colors this narrative.)
jhancock 17y ago
I"m sorry, I don't buy the "lone lunatic" theory. Its a very interesting debate as to whether change at the amount and rate China went through over the past 120 or so years could have occurred without such cost to human life. I like to believe societies even this large can change for the better without so much bloodshed. But no society to date has shown it is capable of behaving with such peace and rationality. This is not pulling excuses for Mao or anyone else. Icons "morph". I don't like the new Chinese money. I think the old bank notes were beautiful and representative of their recent history. China has decided to use Mao on their bank notes and as such has committed to protect his image as being a man of positive change and ignoring or excusing the brutality.
- lucifer 17y ago
  In absence of a theist point of view, no credible moral criticism of Mao is possible. Mao was determinedly and consciously a monster, per his self assigned civilization imperative to achieve the shared goal (of the Chinese intellectual elite) to unshackle China from Chinese history and historic mindset. The bitter irony lost on the swept away former comrades of the helmsman was his violent intent to show the paucity of the convictions of the intellectual class (which he amply demonstrated in the gruesome display of the Great Leap Forward). Today, China is a nation completely denuded of ideological inclinations in its ruling classes. China is again restored to her former (power centric) social structures, having traded (empty) Confucianist morals with (equally empty) koanic musings of the CCP chairman (e.g. Three Represents), and fully equipped to function in the modern world. That is Mao's achievement. I am not a fan of Chairman Meow, but I consider him the most honest of the revolutionary/reformist monsters. At least he didn't b.s. about his self appraisal as the new god for his people. A positive consideration of Mao may find a parallel in the fictional character of the Worm-God Leto in Frank Herbert's Dune.
  - jhancock 17y ago
    I certainly hope you don't find my prior post to defend anything Mao did. I simply feel that if it wasn't him it would have been someone else's name we affix to some other incalculable amount of suffering. There were and still are in China many that model their behavior after thousand year old stratagems for accumulating and maintaining power. When the last empire was swept away, there were many ready to replace it with another form of empire. If it wasn't someone from the camp that Mao sprang from, it may have been someone from the Chiang Kai-shek camp. As far as "Mao's achievements" goes, we may see these having rather short half-lives throughout society. I find that most Chinese only pay lip service to the current mantras from headquarters. Whatever happens over the next 60 years is anybody's guess.

by miked 17y ago

est 17y ago

> The consensus estimate is that 70 million human beings have died so far during the CCP's reign of terror, mostly from starvation Yeah, but it's hard to imagine what China actually like in pre-P.R.C times. It's not "end the war, install democracy and go prosper" that easy for an ancient civilization to turn modern. Mao has his faults, and underestimated contributions, but what's more important is whether current and succeeding politicians will learn from history.

lionhearted 17y ago

> They were the lucky ones, of course. The consensus estimate is that 70 million human beings have died so far during the CCP's reign of terror, mostly from starvation. My wife spent much of her youth hungry. She and her friends used to pull the stingers out of honeybees to get a bit of sweetness in their lives. The things little girls do, huh? I dated a Chinese girl for 3 and 1/2 years whose father was sent to a labor camp for a lot of her childhood. I really don't understand how the Communists don't have the same reputation and stigma of the Nazis. They killed over twice as many people, most of them civilians, and did it for twice as long. They ran their countries into the ground in pretty much all meaningful measures, destroying civilizations well known for science, commerce, and innovation. They accomplished almost nothing of value, in any of the areas mankind finds valuable. And they're treated with a mild disdain, but nothing like the Third Reich, where they probably deserve even worse treatment. If anyone doesn't know who Deng Xiaoping is, it's worth reading a little bit about him. He was probably one of the most important and good politicians of the last 100 years. He helped lead China out of the Communist mess they were in, declaring, "It doesn't matter what color the cat is as long as it catches the mouse." Was imprisoned for a while due to his views before taking over and putting China back on the path to being a global power with healthy, happy citizens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping But as a casual historian, I'm still baffled why the Communists don't have the same or worse of a rep than the Nazis - input from knowledgeable people is welcome.

gaius 17y ago
I'm still baffled why the Communists don't have the same or worse of a rep than the Nazis The simple answer is that many "intellectuals" in the West find the notion of "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability" very appealing. They "need" to do lots of unproductive (and unrewarded in the West) things such as sit around talking about abstract philosophy, and those poor suckers with "ability" will support them for free. Never mind that the one of the first things real Communists do when they take over is send all the intellectuals for re-eductation...
- unalone 17y ago
  I like that you're quoting one of Ayn Rand's "Communist" talking points rather than talking about Communism proper. Let's get something straight. There is no Communist-central plan. Russia and China each approached Communism differently. If somebody else were to try Communism, they'd have a completely different approach to it. As it is, the only Communist regimes we talk about are the ones installed by violence, and as a result we get this idea that you can't have Communism without violently murdering people. The smaller communes that manage to last decades without violence, they're the ones we ignore when readying our anti-Red talking points. You're showing a fair spot of anti-intellectualism when you bash abstract philosophy. Who do you think invented capitalism? I'll give you a major hint: He was an abstract philosopher. Adam Smith was just like Karl Marx, only we like him more. Every major idea we've seen in the world stems to some degree from abstract philosophy, as you call it. It's not particularly abstract, mind you, because it has concrete effects on the world. We're not talking Nietzsche, here. Now, let me explain why the Holocaust is really so touted, and why Mao isn't mentioned as much. Partly it's because Germany is a European nation, and the world is still very Euro-centric. In bigger part, however, it's because the Nazis did a pretty good job at its attempt to exterminate the Jewish religion, which, though small, is a pretty major force in the world. People still think Judaism is one of the three major religions in the world, because they like ignoring Hinduism. Jewish people are usually well-educated, hard-working, and ambitious, which is why there's still a disproportionate amount of them in executive positions at companies, in top-notch colleges, and in the literary world. (If we go by the utterly lame judge that is IQ, the average IQ of a Jewish person in the United States is higher than of any other arbitrary demographic, including asian.) There were 18 million Jews when Hitler took power. When his regime was ended, one in three of those Jews were dead. Remember Nazis also killed 5 million Protestants, but nobody cares about that, because there are so many Protestants. Hitler showed a lot of Jewish people the mortality of their faith. In a time when Jews were still hated in most parts of the world—and they were certainly still hated in the 40s—they were dealt an enormous blow. So a lot of well-educated and influential people all took up the cause. We've got literary masterpieces regarding the Holocaust. I can't think of any that have to do with other genocides; if they exist, I haven't heard of them. There's Eli Wiesel's Night, there's the diary of Anne Frank. Authors wrote a slew of kid's books about the subject, so that a lot of us grow up with the Holocaust ingrained in us. Number the Stars; the Devil's Arithmetic. Those are the books used to teach 10-year-olds about morality. It's all Holocaust-based, because many of the best kid's book writers are Jewish. (Even the ones that don't make being Jewish a big part of their writing. My favorite Child's Lit author is Daniel Handler alias Lemony Snicket, one of whose adult books is about the Golem in the Jewish religion.) Finally, we have the fact that World War II is perhaps the best and easiest story ever told. We've got a brilliant military leader and outright psychopath whose childhood is tragic and fascinating, whose seconds-in-command were all rich characters, and whose uniforms were all made by Hugo Boss, still a big name in the fashion industry. There's the famous swastika. Then there are Hitler's allies: Mussolini, who's almost comically corrupt and bad, and Hirohito, the faceless emperor of a nation that was batshit insane when it started fighting and that tortured American soldiers in unspeakable ways. On the other side you have the heroic crippled FDR, and the brilliant procrastinator Churchill, and you've got the morally uneasy compromise with Stalin. It's a made-to-go movie, which is why so many movies are made about it. Whereas World War I was hell, World War II had a very clear villain. And how do we know he's a clear villain? Because he's cooking Jewish people in ovens. So World War II is an easy story, and it all revolves around the Holocaust as proof of our moral superiority. Therefore, the Holocaust gets celebrity attention, which complements nicely all the talented Jewish people who remember the Holocaust because their parents died in it. (I'm saying all this as a kind-of Jew who grew up listening to a different Holocaust survivor each year. Apologies if that colors this narrative.)

jhancock 17y ago

I"m sorry, I don't buy the "lone lunatic" theory. Its a very interesting debate as to whether change at the amount and rate China went through over the past 120 or so years could have occurred without such cost to human life. I like to believe societies even this large can change for the better without so much bloodshed. But no society to date has shown it is capable of behaving with such peace and rationality. This is not pulling excuses for Mao or anyone else. Icons "morph". I don't like the new Chinese money. I think the old bank notes were beautiful and representative of their recent history. China has decided to use Mao on their bank notes and as such has committed to protect his image as being a man of positive change and ignoring or excusing the brutality.

lucifer 17y ago
In absence of a theist point of view, no credible moral criticism of Mao is possible. Mao was determinedly and consciously a monster, per his self assigned civilization imperative to achieve the shared goal (of the Chinese intellectual elite) to unshackle China from Chinese history and historic mindset. The bitter irony lost on the swept away former comrades of the helmsman was his violent intent to show the paucity of the convictions of the intellectual class (which he amply demonstrated in the gruesome display of the Great Leap Forward). Today, China is a nation completely denuded of ideological inclinations in its ruling classes. China is again restored to her former (power centric) social structures, having traded (empty) Confucianist morals with (equally empty) koanic musings of the CCP chairman (e.g. Three Represents), and fully equipped to function in the modern world. That is Mao's achievement. I am not a fan of Chairman Meow, but I consider him the most honest of the revolutionary/reformist monsters. At least he didn't b.s. about his self appraisal as the new god for his people. A positive consideration of Mao may find a parallel in the fictional character of the Worm-God Leto in Frank Herbert's Dune.
- jhancock 17y ago
  I certainly hope you don't find my prior post to defend anything Mao did. I simply feel that if it wasn't him it would have been someone else's name we affix to some other incalculable amount of suffering. There were and still are in China many that model their behavior after thousand year old stratagems for accumulating and maintaining power. When the last empire was swept away, there were many ready to replace it with another form of empire. If it wasn't someone from the camp that Mao sprang from, it may have been someone from the Chiang Kai-shek camp. As far as "Mao's achievements" goes, we may see these having rather short half-lives throughout society. I find that most Chinese only pay lip service to the current mantras from headquarters. Whatever happens over the next 60 years is anybody's guess.