3 ms·

>In 1939, Clarke was recruited into the Government Code and Cypher School Sickening BBC propaganda, after all this years they still pretend Enigma was cracked

by rasz_pl 12y ago

>In 1939, Clarke was recruited into the Government Code and Cypher School Sickening BBC propaganda, after all this years they still pretend Enigma was cracked in England :/ Yes, this woman cracked enigma single handedly, by enlisting in school in the same year British government receiver FULLY FUCKING CRACKED enigma model and mathematical description from Polish cryptographers (Zygalski, Rozycki and Rejewski).

GotAnyMegadeth 12y ago
That's interesting, I've never heard that before, do you have a reference? Thanks
- richardwigley 12y ago
  German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine
- xxxyy 12y ago
  Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma#Polish_breakthrough http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma#Pol... The 20 years between the wars were an amazing time in Poland. It was perhaps the best time in Polish history of mathematics, with remarkable contributions from Stefan Banach and his other Lvov friends: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Banach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Banach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_School_of_Mathematics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_School_of_Mathematics
- pja 12y ago
  Read any book on the history in question - it's no secret that the Poles were responsible for working out the details of the Enigma machines and how to break them. The British took their work and developed it into methods that were more general & powerful. Wikipedia is a good as place to start as any - follow the references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma.
- deleted 12y ago
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xyzzy123 12y ago
Yes agreed, but execution and exploitation matter. The practical requirements to make a difference required a concerted network of interception stations along with dedicated cryptanalytic resources, computing experts and translators. I agree the standard explanation is crap, but it doesn't reduce the actual accomplishment of BP.
qwerta 12y ago
What I found even more sickening: polish cryptographers were in England for most of WW2, but were not trusted enough to decipher anything.
- EliRivers 12y ago
  Polish cryptographers in England during WW2 were massively, massively vulnerable to coercion by Axis agents; they had family and friends in Axis-occupied Poland, and the Axis powers were not at all squeamish about murdering Poles. Even that aside, it was impossible to do any kind of security review of them as all the information about them that was needed had either been destroyed by the German and Soviet invasion of Poland, or was in a records office in aforementioned Axis-occupied Poland. Considering Polish cryptographers in England a security risk wasn't sickening; it was sensible.
ajuc 12y ago
Enigma was cracked many times, because Enigma changed, there were many versions, and more importantly procedures of using Enigma were different in different German army branches. Poles first cracked only some versions, and only if Enigma was misused (which was common because it was convenient), then they improved the method, cracking more difficult version, and making the method more general. Poles also built the first machine to crack Enigma (functionaly it was many enigma clones connected to each other, trying many keys at once basing on some assumptions to reduce the search space). Then Poles sent that knowledge to French and British just before WW2, and British developed more general method, and built better cracking device. British contribution was important too, it made cracking more versions and Enigmas used with better practices possible. But yes - it was outrageus that they pretended for decades it was they that solved the Enigma in the first place and said nothing about Polish contribution. And the Hollywood movie was even worse propaganda, and it was created recently, when the archives weren't secret, so they don't have any excuse to show lies.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Monkey Dust's take on mainstream 'historical' films is pretty good. Here's their version of 'The Diary of Ann Frank' - http://www.vidivodo.com/video/monkey-dust-ann-frank/166592 http://www.vidivodo.com/video/monkey-dust-ann-frank/166592 I am with you completely over British propaganda about the war. Also I think our simplified portrayal of the conflict feeds the existence of groups like UKIP as you cannot venerate the British armed forces in the world wars and at the same time denigrate immigrants, unless you have absolutely no idea of history. For instance, if you look at lists of fighter aces and check the nationality of those who are counted as having flown in the RAF, over half of them are not from the UK. Polish pilots make up a huge chunk of them and the highest ranking RAF ace was Belgian.
JonnieCache 12y ago
I wonder how many poles will appear in the upcoming movie.
- ajuc 12y ago
  One, that will turn out to be traitor, like in the previous one :/
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    Who will be played by someone Scottish in a bad Russian accent.
willvarfar 12y ago
You are being simplistic and nationalistic. Hugh Foss first outlined an attack on Enigma in 1927. By the 30s the enigma had evolved but Dilly Knox broke Enigma as used by the Spanish in 1937 before he learnt of the Polish attacks in 1938. (He had declared the German enigma unbreakable but that doesn't make his contribution trivial.) Knox later created attacks particular to the Italian naval enigma. Turing is often credited with the lion share of fame for this stuff and its true that he was crucial in breaking german naval enigma which was the hardest used. But that pales into insignificance compared to the breaking of Tunny IMHO. Any popular story is bound to focus on the people and their love lives more than be a technical piece. Go to Bletchley Park and bathe in the credit clearly given to all those involved - especially the Poles - as people and not as nationalities.
- demallien 12y ago
  Yup, Enigma was a side-show, the main deal was Colossus and the work to crack Tunny. The fact that Tunny had been cracked was a highly classified secret for decades after the war - I've always felt that the Enigma story was used as a cover to hide what Bletchley Park had really been up to, secrets within secrets.
lucozade 12y ago
You're right that the title is misleading to the point of being wrong. Enigma wasn't cracked at Bletchley, it was cracked by Polish mathematicians. You may be right about it being propaganda but I suspect it's more of a case of a sub-editor not really knowing what he/she is talking about. The rest of the article, at least, seems ok in that it talks about her working on decipherment of the Naval codes which is true, I believe. I do appreciate your sentiment though. I don't think it diminishes the achievements at Bletchley to highlight the value they received from others, particularly the key early work of the Polish.

by rasz_pl 12y ago

GotAnyMegadeth 12y ago

That's interesting, I've never heard that before, do you have a reference? Thanks

richardwigley 12y ago
German military texts enciphered on the Enigma machine were first broken by the Polish Cipher Bureau, beginning in December 1932. This success was a result of efforts by three Polish cryptologists, Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, working for Polish military intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine
xxxyy 12y ago
Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma#Polish_breakthrough http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma#Pol... The 20 years between the wars were an amazing time in Poland. It was perhaps the best time in Polish history of mathematics, with remarkable contributions from Stefan Banach and his other Lvov friends: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Banach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Banach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_School_of_Mathematics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_School_of_Mathematics
pja 12y ago
Read any book on the history in question - it's no secret that the Poles were responsible for working out the details of the Enigma machines and how to break them. The British took their work and developed it into methods that were more general & powerful. Wikipedia is a good as place to start as any - follow the references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma.
deleted 12y ago
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deleted 12y ago

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xyzzy123 12y ago

Yes agreed, but execution and exploitation matter. The practical requirements to make a difference required a concerted network of interception stations along with dedicated cryptanalytic resources, computing experts and translators. I agree the standard explanation is crap, but it doesn't reduce the actual accomplishment of BP.

qwerta 12y ago

What I found even more sickening: polish cryptographers were in England for most of WW2, but were not trusted enough to decipher anything.

EliRivers 12y ago
Polish cryptographers in England during WW2 were massively, massively vulnerable to coercion by Axis agents; they had family and friends in Axis-occupied Poland, and the Axis powers were not at all squeamish about murdering Poles. Even that aside, it was impossible to do any kind of security review of them as all the information about them that was needed had either been destroyed by the German and Soviet invasion of Poland, or was in a records office in aforementioned Axis-occupied Poland. Considering Polish cryptographers in England a security risk wasn't sickening; it was sensible.

ajuc 12y ago

Enigma was cracked many times, because Enigma changed, there were many versions, and more importantly procedures of using Enigma were different in different German army branches. Poles first cracked only some versions, and only if Enigma was misused (which was common because it was convenient), then they improved the method, cracking more difficult version, and making the method more general. Poles also built the first machine to crack Enigma (functionaly it was many enigma clones connected to each other, trying many keys at once basing on some assumptions to reduce the search space). Then Poles sent that knowledge to French and British just before WW2, and British developed more general method, and built better cracking device. British contribution was important too, it made cracking more versions and Enigmas used with better practices possible. But yes - it was outrageus that they pretended for decades it was they that solved the Enigma in the first place and said nothing about Polish contribution. And the Hollywood movie was even worse propaganda, and it was created recently, when the archives weren't secret, so they don't have any excuse to show lies.

lotsofmangos 12y ago
Monkey Dust's take on mainstream 'historical' films is pretty good. Here's their version of 'The Diary of Ann Frank' - http://www.vidivodo.com/video/monkey-dust-ann-frank/166592 http://www.vidivodo.com/video/monkey-dust-ann-frank/166592 I am with you completely over British propaganda about the war. Also I think our simplified portrayal of the conflict feeds the existence of groups like UKIP as you cannot venerate the British armed forces in the world wars and at the same time denigrate immigrants, unless you have absolutely no idea of history. For instance, if you look at lists of fighter aces and check the nationality of those who are counted as having flown in the RAF, over half of them are not from the UK. Polish pilots make up a huge chunk of them and the highest ranking RAF ace was Belgian.

JonnieCache 12y ago

I wonder how many poles will appear in the upcoming movie.

ajuc 12y ago
One, that will turn out to be traitor, like in the previous one :/
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Who will be played by someone Scottish in a bad Russian accent.

willvarfar 12y ago

You are being simplistic and nationalistic. Hugh Foss first outlined an attack on Enigma in 1927. By the 30s the enigma had evolved but Dilly Knox broke Enigma as used by the Spanish in 1937 before he learnt of the Polish attacks in 1938. (He had declared the German enigma unbreakable but that doesn't make his contribution trivial.) Knox later created attacks particular to the Italian naval enigma. Turing is often credited with the lion share of fame for this stuff and its true that he was crucial in breaking german naval enigma which was the hardest used. But that pales into insignificance compared to the breaking of Tunny IMHO. Any popular story is bound to focus on the people and their love lives more than be a technical piece. Go to Bletchley Park and bathe in the credit clearly given to all those involved - especially the Poles - as people and not as nationalities.

demallien 12y ago
Yup, Enigma was a side-show, the main deal was Colossus and the work to crack Tunny. The fact that Tunny had been cracked was a highly classified secret for decades after the war - I've always felt that the Enigma story was used as a cover to hide what Bletchley Park had really been up to, secrets within secrets.

lucozade 12y ago

You're right that the title is misleading to the point of being wrong. Enigma wasn't cracked at Bletchley, it was cracked by Polish mathematicians. You may be right about it being propaganda but I suspect it's more of a case of a sub-editor not really knowing what he/she is talking about. The rest of the article, at least, seems ok in that it talks about her working on decipherment of the Naval codes which is true, I believe. I do appreciate your sentiment though. I don't think it diminishes the achievements at Bletchley to highlight the value they received from others, particularly the key early work of the Polish.