9 ms·

The 5K Retina iMac’s screen runs at 60Hz at 5K resolution

193 points by lelf 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jrockway 12y ago
Yes. The reason why laptops and all-in-ones get the panels with high resolutions is because the manufacturer gets to build the source, sink, and transport layer, and isn't stuck with what a standards committee can make for them. (Details here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8549629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8549629) But hey, at least the standards committees are working on new forms of DRM so the NSA can't tap your video cable and see your screen. Or something.
- webkike 12y ago
  Lost me at the end, but good point in general, I think?
  - potatolicious 12y ago
    I think he's referring to HDCP, which is a standard meant to prevent tapping into a HD video output for the purposes of recording. It's of pretty dubious effectiveness, and quite honestly has screwed me in the past more than a few times even when I was doing something 100% legitimate (like renting a movie on iTunes and trying to use my MacBook's HDMI out to the TV... and it refusing to play). Not to mention there are many, many more ways to record HD content from a source than tapping the video output.
    - revelation 12y ago
      Well, it's certainly of no effectiveness whatsoever since the HDCP master key leaked and anyone can trivially decrypt a HDCP stream ever since. The NeTV (http://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=NeTV_Main_Page http://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=NeTV_Main_Page) does this in realtime. That doesn't mean they have stopped preventing people from watching their just bought content on a beamer or display without HDCP support. Oh no, that stuff continues right now. In the history of DRM, this is probably one of the most bizarre failures. You can reasonably assume it never stopped anyone from making illegit copies (capturing very high bandwidth interfaces like HDMI is decidedly non-trivial and simply not worth the time investment if there are much easier sources), while denying people who just seconds ago shelled out cash for your product access for a reason they will not understand and will certainly not appreciate.
      - jrockway 12y ago
        My complaint is that the standards committees are wasting their time on a replacement for HDCP: something nobody wants or needs. Meanwhile, where's my 120Hz 4k monitor.
      - beagle3 12y ago
        > The NeTV does this in realtime. No, the NeTV does NOT do any kind of decryption. What it does do is encrypt its own image using the same key in parallel, so that it can overlay its own display on top of the incoming display stream. It does include an implementatiom of HDCP that could be used for decryptioon if you work hard enough at it (and I would guess someone worked hard enough at it), but as it comes out of the box, NeTV cannot be used to strip off HDCP.
        lelandbatey 12y ago
        Is there anything that does decrypt HDCP in real time? Something where you plug an encrypted cable into one end and it outputs an unencrypted source on the other? One that maintains things like audio?
        1offi 12y ago
        Sure: all SiI9187 based HDMI splitters do, e.g. amazon.com/dp/B005HXFARS
        jrockway 12y ago
        The amazon pages say they don't decrypt anymore. That's a fragile attack anyway, as I imagine the key they're using would be revoked. The only attack that works is one that uses the master key to generate keys that haven't been revoked, which I doubt their hardware does. (Illegal and all that. Just being an HDCP endpoint is easy; take the chips from your TV product and stick them in the splitter. "Oops, sorry." But then you get revoked.)
  - cnvogel 12y ago
    > But hey, at least the standards committees are working on new > forms of DRM so the NSA can't tap your video cable and see your > screen. Or something. I think he was referring to the fact that industry fails to provide end-users with good, ubiquitous and easy to use cryptography for privacy, while on the other hand video standards have repeatedly been delayed through industry mandating ubiquitous cryptography for digital rights management. e.g. one of the (likely: many) topics that are being discussed in the committees designing the next generation of DVI/HDMI/DisplayPort standards likely is how to encrypt the video signalso that a customer is barred from recording a movie. Which delays the availability of future standards describing how to drive your 5K monitor at 60 Hz over then-improved HDMI/DisplayPort connections.
- mwti 12y ago
  Don't worry!! Spread spectrum interference patterns generated with MASERs allow the NSA to reflect back what you see through your own eyes... probably from that white van parked out front.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
staunch 12y ago
The test used: http://www.testufo.com/ http://www.testufo.com/ Created by the person running Blur Busters, who is doing really neat stuff. http://www.blurbusters.com/ http://www.blurbusters.com/ The forums have some fascinating discussions: http://forums.blurbusters.com/ http://forums.blurbusters.com/ I think a lot of other HN'ers would like it.
shurcooL 12y ago
I'm very glad to see arstechnica using the blurbusters tool for testing monitor rate! It was initially a Win32 exe that I created 5 years ago [1] with a simple idea to display very distinct frames, back when people were using all kinds of silly less accurate methods like timers to do these things. Blurbusters did a great job of making the tool more accessible to more people (visit website vs. download and run an unknown exe). They were even respectful enough to ask for my permission before adding it their website (which I of course was happy to give permission to, and not that I would mind too much if they didn't, it's a very simple idea after all). [1] http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1423433 http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1423433
- tofof 12y ago
  Except that they didn't do so! They just took a screenshot, the contents of which include the instructions that a screenshot is meaningless.
  - shurcooL 12y ago
    Hah, I just noticed that those 2 really nice photos at the bottom are a comment from blurbusters, not a part of the article. One step at a time, hehe.
    - nacs 12y ago
      Well its kind of part of the article -- it's a promoted comment (and the only one).
- pinumbernumber 12y ago
  "UNSUPPORTED: VSYNC is not available on the Linux platform". What feature exactly is supported on Windows and OSX but not Linux that provides correct vsync?
  - jrockway 12y ago
    Linux supports a variety of compositing managers (programs that receive pixels from the application and are responsible for actually making the video hardware draw them), and these each have various settings that control how they interact with blanking. I have mine set to sync to vblank and so Chrome animations seem to sync to vblank too. Changing the settings on the fly, though, is implementation dependent, and whatever implements the feature for this website probably doesn't want to bother. It does work fine on ChromeOS, so it's a "generic Linux" thing, not some specific problem with the Linux kernel itself.
mmphosis 12y ago
Uses SwitchResX to get the iMac to actually display in 5K?
- function_seven 12y ago
  No, they used it to turn HiDPI mode off, so that each physical pixel is addressed as a logical pixel, instead of the normal 4 phyical to 1 logical mapping.
- simonh 12y ago
  Some people might read that and misunderstand. It does display in 5K whenever possible, but appears to be a half res screen to some software for compatibility purposes. You are still getting the benefit of the higher resolution though, unless you're viewing bit maps that are lower res, or use badly written or non-native software for example. On that last point, how do things like Xwindows or Qt apps work out? Qt should be ok because it tends to use native widgets, as I understand it, but I imagine it depends on how the app is written. I noticed an odd quirk when I got my first retina iPad. Some iPhone apps did render some content at full resolution. I first noticed with iPhone camera apps. The app interface would render at iPhone resolution, but the photos were at full native display resolution. Has anyone noticed any quirks like that with the 5K iMac?
psp 12y ago
That frame rate analysis trick by taking a photo with phone camera is just amazing!
nrzuk 12y ago
Nice to see an independent review to back this up! Keep meaning to nip down to the Apple store and have a look but a little concerned I'll be coming home with one! But until we have DP1.3 and external matching 5K thunderbolt display this really isn't for me. The authors comments regarding the previous thunderbolt display "However, the Retina display does make things on the other 2560x1440 displays look… a little grody." really do put me off.
- cerberusss 12y ago
  > Keep meaning to nip down to the Apple store If you're due for an upgrade anyway, then I skip the Apple store. Instead, I'd simply order it and get that "OMG" moment when you unpack it :-)
Sephr 12y ago
> Even when using SwitchResX to force the display out of HiDPI mode and into a non-scaled 1:1 5120x2880 resolution, SwitchResX continues to show 60Hz (I’d include a screenshot, but it looks identical to the previous one). So they used Blur Busters multiple times with multiple display configurations and not a single time did they actually think to read any of the bright red instructions. This is not what I've come to expect from Ars Technica.
- kenferry 12y ago
  Where are the bright red instructions? I'm interested in this, but I'm having trouble finding an explanation of how to use http://www.testufo.com http://www.testufo.com, or of what it's measuring.
  - tyilo 12y ago
    See this for the specific test used in the article: http://www.testufo.com/#test=frameskipping http://www.testufo.com/#test=frameskipping The instruction is on the top
    - kenferry 12y ago
      Thanks!
- jules 12y ago
  Very bad UI design. Instead of "VALID" it should say "NOW TAKE A PHOTO".
pdknsk 12y ago
I don't know why this is news. Did anyone really think Apple would release a display at 30Hz? I very much doubt it. The real question is what PWM frequency the backlight runs at! (If any.)
- r0s 12y ago
  Most 4k screens on the market have limited refresh rates compared to lower res. That's why it's news.
  - pdknsk 12y ago
    You're mistaken. There probably isn't a single 4K monitor that doesn't support 60Hz. Unfortunately some people buy 4K TVs like the infamous Seiki to use as monitors.
    - r0s 12y ago
      Ah, you're right. I was thinking about the 120Hz vs. 60hz issue.
    - lreeves 12y ago
      The one I've seen talked about the most is the Dell 28 Ultra HD 4K (1) and it is indeed 30HZ. 1 - http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&sku=210-ACHO http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&c....
      - pdknsk 12y ago
        Wow, you're right. That's a terrible monitor with TN panel to match. From a reputable(?) brand no less. Anyway, I think my original point still stands. Apple is no Dell.
        quadratini 12y ago
        And his point still stands. This is news.
joemaller1 12y ago
We got several of these at work and the screens are just phenomenal. I want one at home too.
- kmfrk 12y ago
  It's really quite incredible. I also just got a new - plain, boring - Dell monitor, and the background lighting (or whatever it is) really makes the difference between that and older, dimmer screens.
danielweber 12y ago
How has burn-in been the past 2 years? I've got a two-year-old MacBook and I can read my mail after I log out.
- publicfig 12y ago
  I took my laptop in to the Apple store and they replaced it without question due to image retention.
- Steko 12y ago
  Image persistence =/= burn in
- arrrg 12y ago
  That’s image retention, not burn in. It’s not permanent, though still very annoying. Do you have the 2012 15" Retina MacBook Pro? Some of those (those with LG screens) were suffering horribly from image retention. I got the screen exchanged twice on mine. Now I luckily have the Samsung screen. There are currently no known cases of image retention with this iMac. It looks as though they got the issue under control and this was really a first gen (large screen) retina tech problem. (Retina iPads were or maybe still are suffering from image retention, too, though, strangely, with my iPad 3 I care much less about that, for whatever reason. It’s also a bit more mild.)
- zghst 12y ago
  If you get the Samsung screen replacement, you won't get any image retention. Although there is a trade off, the Samsung screens have more yellow whites and the contrast is less (I remember black being as black as the bevel with the LG screen). I wish I could've won the lottery and gotten one of those LGs without any retention.

193 points by lelf 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

Yes. The reason why laptops and all-in-ones get the panels with high resolutions is because the manufacturer gets to build the source, sink, and transport layer, and isn't stuck with what a standards committee can make for them. (Details here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8549629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8549629) But hey, at least the standards committees are working on new forms of DRM so the NSA can't tap your video cable and see your screen. Or something.

webkike 12y ago
Lost me at the end, but good point in general, I think?
- potatolicious 12y ago
  I think he's referring to HDCP, which is a standard meant to prevent tapping into a HD video output for the purposes of recording. It's of pretty dubious effectiveness, and quite honestly has screwed me in the past more than a few times even when I was doing something 100% legitimate (like renting a movie on iTunes and trying to use my MacBook's HDMI out to the TV... and it refusing to play). Not to mention there are many, many more ways to record HD content from a source than tapping the video output.
  - revelation 12y ago
    Well, it's certainly of no effectiveness whatsoever since the HDCP master key leaked and anyone can trivially decrypt a HDCP stream ever since. The NeTV (http://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=NeTV_Main_Page http://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=NeTV_Main_Page) does this in realtime. That doesn't mean they have stopped preventing people from watching their just bought content on a beamer or display without HDCP support. Oh no, that stuff continues right now. In the history of DRM, this is probably one of the most bizarre failures. You can reasonably assume it never stopped anyone from making illegit copies (capturing very high bandwidth interfaces like HDMI is decidedly non-trivial and simply not worth the time investment if there are much easier sources), while denying people who just seconds ago shelled out cash for your product access for a reason they will not understand and will certainly not appreciate.
    - jrockway 12y ago
      My complaint is that the standards committees are wasting their time on a replacement for HDCP: something nobody wants or needs. Meanwhile, where's my 120Hz 4k monitor.
    - beagle3 12y ago
      > The NeTV does this in realtime. No, the NeTV does NOT do any kind of decryption. What it does do is encrypt its own image using the same key in parallel, so that it can overlay its own display on top of the incoming display stream. It does include an implementatiom of HDCP that could be used for decryptioon if you work hard enough at it (and I would guess someone worked hard enough at it), but as it comes out of the box, NeTV cannot be used to strip off HDCP.
      - lelandbatey 12y ago
        Is there anything that does decrypt HDCP in real time? Something where you plug an encrypted cable into one end and it outputs an unencrypted source on the other? One that maintains things like audio?
        1offi 12y ago
        Sure: all SiI9187 based HDMI splitters do, e.g. amazon.com/dp/B005HXFARS
        jrockway 12y ago
        The amazon pages say they don't decrypt anymore. That's a fragile attack anyway, as I imagine the key they're using would be revoked. The only attack that works is one that uses the master key to generate keys that haven't been revoked, which I doubt their hardware does. (Illegal and all that. Just being an HDCP endpoint is easy; take the chips from your TV product and stick them in the splitter. "Oops, sorry." But then you get revoked.)
- cnvogel 12y ago
  > But hey, at least the standards committees are working on new > forms of DRM so the NSA can't tap your video cable and see your > screen. Or something. I think he was referring to the fact that industry fails to provide end-users with good, ubiquitous and easy to use cryptography for privacy, while on the other hand video standards have repeatedly been delayed through industry mandating ubiquitous cryptography for digital rights management. e.g. one of the (likely: many) topics that are being discussed in the committees designing the next generation of DVI/HDMI/DisplayPort standards likely is how to encrypt the video signalso that a customer is barred from recording a movie. Which delays the availability of future standards describing how to drive your 5K monitor at 60 Hz over then-improved HDMI/DisplayPort connections.
mwti 12y ago
Don't worry!! Spread spectrum interference patterns generated with MASERs allow the NSA to reflect back what you see through your own eyes... probably from that white van parked out front.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

staunch 12y ago

The test used: http://www.testufo.com/ http://www.testufo.com/ Created by the person running Blur Busters, who is doing really neat stuff. http://www.blurbusters.com/ http://www.blurbusters.com/ The forums have some fascinating discussions: http://forums.blurbusters.com/ http://forums.blurbusters.com/ I think a lot of other HN'ers would like it.

shurcooL 12y ago

I'm very glad to see arstechnica using the blurbusters tool for testing monitor rate! It was initially a Win32 exe that I created 5 years ago [1] with a simple idea to display very distinct frames, back when people were using all kinds of silly less accurate methods like timers to do these things. Blurbusters did a great job of making the tool more accessible to more people (visit website vs. download and run an unknown exe). They were even respectful enough to ask for my permission before adding it their website (which I of course was happy to give permission to, and not that I would mind too much if they didn't, it's a very simple idea after all). [1] http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1423433 http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1423433

tofof 12y ago
Except that they didn't do so! They just took a screenshot, the contents of which include the instructions that a screenshot is meaningless.
- shurcooL 12y ago
  Hah, I just noticed that those 2 really nice photos at the bottom are a comment from blurbusters, not a part of the article. One step at a time, hehe.
  - nacs 12y ago
    Well its kind of part of the article -- it's a promoted comment (and the only one).
pinumbernumber 12y ago
"UNSUPPORTED: VSYNC is not available on the Linux platform". What feature exactly is supported on Windows and OSX but not Linux that provides correct vsync?
- jrockway 12y ago
  Linux supports a variety of compositing managers (programs that receive pixels from the application and are responsible for actually making the video hardware draw them), and these each have various settings that control how they interact with blanking. I have mine set to sync to vblank and so Chrome animations seem to sync to vblank too. Changing the settings on the fly, though, is implementation dependent, and whatever implements the feature for this website probably doesn't want to bother. It does work fine on ChromeOS, so it's a "generic Linux" thing, not some specific problem with the Linux kernel itself.

mmphosis 12y ago

Uses SwitchResX to get the iMac to actually display in 5K?

function_seven 12y ago
No, they used it to turn HiDPI mode off, so that each physical pixel is addressed as a logical pixel, instead of the normal 4 phyical to 1 logical mapping.
simonh 12y ago
Some people might read that and misunderstand. It does display in 5K whenever possible, but appears to be a half res screen to some software for compatibility purposes. You are still getting the benefit of the higher resolution though, unless you're viewing bit maps that are lower res, or use badly written or non-native software for example. On that last point, how do things like Xwindows or Qt apps work out? Qt should be ok because it tends to use native widgets, as I understand it, but I imagine it depends on how the app is written. I noticed an odd quirk when I got my first retina iPad. Some iPhone apps did render some content at full resolution. I first noticed with iPhone camera apps. The app interface would render at iPhone resolution, but the photos were at full native display resolution. Has anyone noticed any quirks like that with the 5K iMac?

psp 12y ago

That frame rate analysis trick by taking a photo with phone camera is just amazing!

nrzuk 12y ago

Nice to see an independent review to back this up! Keep meaning to nip down to the Apple store and have a look but a little concerned I'll be coming home with one! But until we have DP1.3 and external matching 5K thunderbolt display this really isn't for me. The authors comments regarding the previous thunderbolt display "However, the Retina display does make things on the other 2560x1440 displays look… a little grody." really do put me off.

cerberusss 12y ago
> Keep meaning to nip down to the Apple store If you're due for an upgrade anyway, then I skip the Apple store. Instead, I'd simply order it and get that "OMG" moment when you unpack it :-)

Sephr 12y ago

> Even when using SwitchResX to force the display out of HiDPI mode and into a non-scaled 1:1 5120x2880 resolution, SwitchResX continues to show 60Hz (I’d include a screenshot, but it looks identical to the previous one). So they used Blur Busters multiple times with multiple display configurations and not a single time did they actually think to read any of the bright red instructions. This is not what I've come to expect from Ars Technica.

kenferry 12y ago
Where are the bright red instructions? I'm interested in this, but I'm having trouble finding an explanation of how to use http://www.testufo.com http://www.testufo.com, or of what it's measuring.
- tyilo 12y ago
  See this for the specific test used in the article: http://www.testufo.com/#test=frameskipping http://www.testufo.com/#test=frameskipping The instruction is on the top
  - kenferry 12y ago
    Thanks!
jules 12y ago
Very bad UI design. Instead of "VALID" it should say "NOW TAKE A PHOTO".

pdknsk 12y ago

I don't know why this is news. Did anyone really think Apple would release a display at 30Hz? I very much doubt it. The real question is what PWM frequency the backlight runs at! (If any.)

r0s 12y ago
Most 4k screens on the market have limited refresh rates compared to lower res. That's why it's news.
- pdknsk 12y ago
  You're mistaken. There probably isn't a single 4K monitor that doesn't support 60Hz. Unfortunately some people buy 4K TVs like the infamous Seiki to use as monitors.
  - r0s 12y ago
    Ah, you're right. I was thinking about the 120Hz vs. 60hz issue.
  - lreeves 12y ago
    The one I've seen talked about the most is the Dell 28 Ultra HD 4K (1) and it is indeed 30HZ. 1 - http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&sku=210-ACHO http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&c....
    - pdknsk 12y ago
      Wow, you're right. That's a terrible monitor with TN panel to match. From a reputable(?) brand no less. Anyway, I think my original point still stands. Apple is no Dell.
      - quadratini 12y ago
        And his point still stands. This is news.

joemaller1 12y ago

We got several of these at work and the screens are just phenomenal. I want one at home too.

kmfrk 12y ago
It's really quite incredible. I also just got a new - plain, boring - Dell monitor, and the background lighting (or whatever it is) really makes the difference between that and older, dimmer screens.

danielweber 12y ago

How has burn-in been the past 2 years? I've got a two-year-old MacBook and I can read my mail after I log out.

publicfig 12y ago
I took my laptop in to the Apple store and they replaced it without question due to image retention.
Steko 12y ago
Image persistence =/= burn in
arrrg 12y ago
That’s image retention, not burn in. It’s not permanent, though still very annoying. Do you have the 2012 15" Retina MacBook Pro? Some of those (those with LG screens) were suffering horribly from image retention. I got the screen exchanged twice on mine. Now I luckily have the Samsung screen. There are currently no known cases of image retention with this iMac. It looks as though they got the issue under control and this was really a first gen (large screen) retina tech problem. (Retina iPads were or maybe still are suffering from image retention, too, though, strangely, with my iPad 3 I care much less about that, for whatever reason. It’s also a bit more mild.)
zghst 12y ago
If you get the Samsung screen replacement, you won't get any image retention. Although there is a trade off, the Samsung screens have more yellow whites and the contrast is less (I remember black being as black as the bevel with the LG screen). I wish I could've won the lottery and gotten one of those LGs without any retention.