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The fact that this has been going on sickens me. The entire US infrastructure is corrupt (actually probably the entire world's infrastructure). There was the

by steven2012 12y ago

The fact that this has been going on sickens me. The entire US infrastructure is corrupt (actually probably the entire world's infrastructure). There was the article a few weeks ago about how the Federal Reserve was in bed with the likes of Goldman Sachs, and a whistleblower came out and still nothing was done. But what do we do as a generation of people that don't want this? The closest thing to come was Occupy Wall Street, but that fizzled out. Is there a way to organize ourselves and vote in blocks to get rid of these current politicians and elect a new generation that hopefully isn't as corrupt? Yes, I know, it's a pipe dream.

nutschig 12y ago
Exit the financial system. Use Bitcoin.
- cmapes 12y ago
  Not realistic if you run a business that actually operates in the real world.
  - Andrew_Quentin 12y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Rome was not built in one day, but with small steps. If you wish change then you take small actions that of course do not build a palace today, but might do in 10 years. That basically translates to use bitcoins alongside dollars and slowly transition to bitcoins only.
    - dd36 12y ago
      Why are bitcoins a solution to a corrupt criminal justice system?
      - throwaway344 12y ago
        Yeah, I've never understood the logic that using Bitcoins insulates someone to the normal financial system. If you want a loan, put money in a bank account, or hedger risk, or do anything with your money that isn't just moving it from address to address, it is still needed to have banks. Or have cryptocurrency fans figured out a solution that I can't think of now.
        dd36 12y ago
        It's similar to the idealist trope that tearing everything down to rebuild it will somehow not be subject to corruption and perversion the next time around. As though they've found some way to control human nature. It's unavoidable systemic entropy.
cmapes 12y ago
I agree, it was honestly difficult to read this article and to reconcile the thought that I do business banking with Chase. I've been thinking of a few non-profit startup ideas to combat this widespread corruption problem, but its nothing I'd want to discuss publicly in case I actually pull the trigger on it and desired to remain anonymous. I think you're thinking down the right highway of thought though.
- rbshadel 12y ago
  As someone else who uses Chase, I'm having trouble with the same reconciliation. As an individual consumer though, what can I do to stop feeding and perpetuating the system? My initial reaction is to "vote with my feet" but is there any bank that isn't similarly suspect? Alternately is it realistic to exit the banking system completely, or is that just wildly impractical? I see a lot of discussion on hackernews about "security vs convenience" (albeit in a completely different context); maybe the parallel here is "morality vs convenience."
  - malenm 12y ago
    How about a local credit union?
    - rbshadel 12y ago
      Wow I had a completely incorrect understanding of what credit unions are and what you'd use them for...this looks like exactly the kind of alternative I'd like to explore. Thanks!
  - SkyMarshal 12y ago
    Look into credit unions for which you might be eligible, as well as smaller regional banks that don't deal in exotic financial products and in which the management team still feels a personal responsibility to their depositors. patio11's recent blog post on Japan has a good section on what that's like: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ (ctrl-f for "Taro", read about his banking relationship manager) There are still banks in the US that operate like that in principle, if not in degree - no exotic products, strict adherence to traditional corporate lending standards, extensive knowledge of their customers, and a culture ingrained first and foremost with personal responsibility to the soundness of the local economy. Best example I know of is First Hawaiian Bank [1], having worked there a few years. It is actually the longest continually-running bank in the US, having been founded in 1858 and survived every major depression and financial crisis since. They're not on the bleeding edge of tech or quantitative finance, but that's one of the things that saved them from being a victim of the financial crisis (aka, the Battlestar Galactica of banking). Other banks like that scattered around the country too. You can start some research with the various bank rating sites: http://www.bankrate.com/rates/safe-sound/bank-ratings-search.aspx http://www.bankrate.com/rates/safe-sound/bank-ratings-search... http://www.bauerfinancial.com/ http://www.bauerfinancial.com/ [1]:https://www.fhb.com/en/inside-fhb/our-rich-history/ https://www.fhb.com/en/inside-fhb/our-rich-history/
theklub 12y ago
Getting people under 30 to vote in large numbers would be a good start.
canvia 12y ago
Was this the Goldman article? http://www.propublica.org/article/carmen-segarras-secret-recordings-from-inside-new-york-fed http://www.propublica.org/article/carmen-segarras-secret-rec...
josefresco 12y ago
"The entire US infrastructure is corrupt" What makes you think it's limited to the United States? These banks are global, and not global as in "we make shit in China" but global as they do business in almost every major country. In fact, some of the largest financial "crimes" of the events leading to the 2008 financial crisis were conducted not in the US.
vinhboy 12y ago
Speaking of Occupy, this sentence in the article got me all excited > President Obama, giving in to pressure from the Occupy movement and other reformers, had formed the Residential Mortgage-Backed Securities Working Group. I wonder if there is an ounce of truth to that. Too bad Occupy never adopted a leader. If there is anything I learn from that experience, is that there can't be a leader less movement. Someone has to become the face of it.
- mercer 12y ago
  While my information is probably incomplete and biased, I got the impression Occupy 'failed', or rather is perceived to have failed, had more to do with 1) the fact that there wasn't one concrete issue to have 'success' with, on the whole, and 2) serious efforts by the government to crack down on Occupy in a variety of ways that are worryingly clever. In both cases, it's important to understand that Occupy, at least according to prominent individuals in the movement like David Graeber, was ideologically built on anarchist principles. He argues in his book on the issue that being leaderless and 'horizontal' in nature was actually one reason why it did so well, relatively. To be clear: I'm not sure I agree with his viewpoints or his perspective on the Occupy movement. That said, I can still strongly recommend "The Democracy Project" as an interesting and completely different view of not only the occupy movement, but on Democracy and society as well. I've read a number of his books and articles and I like how they make me question things.
vijayr 12y ago
One thing to do is take our business elsewhere - support credit unions instead of banks like Chase, support farmer's markets instead of big food chains and so on. One could argue that "normal" people might not be able to make much difference, but if 50 or 100 million of us take a very small step, it goes a long way. The biggest problem is that we (almost all of us) have come to value convenience more than anything else - convenience at the risk of privacy, security etc. That needs to change, and it is very hard (I had a colleague flip out the other day, because something he ordered from Amazon was a day late - just one frickin day, and it wasn't even something important or urgent). It requires a fundamental mindset change.
tim333 12y ago
>elect a new generation that hopefully isn't as corrupt It's more the system that need to change than the individuals. Maybe if you could elect a leader that would try to change that stuff. Not sure who. Shame someone like Warren Buffett is not running for president.

nutschig 12y ago

Exit the financial system. Use Bitcoin.

cmapes 12y ago
Not realistic if you run a business that actually operates in the real world.
- Andrew_Quentin 12y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Rome was not built in one day, but with small steps. If you wish change then you take small actions that of course do not build a palace today, but might do in 10 years. That basically translates to use bitcoins alongside dollars and slowly transition to bitcoins only.
  - dd36 12y ago
    Why are bitcoins a solution to a corrupt criminal justice system?
    - throwaway344 12y ago
      Yeah, I've never understood the logic that using Bitcoins insulates someone to the normal financial system. If you want a loan, put money in a bank account, or hedger risk, or do anything with your money that isn't just moving it from address to address, it is still needed to have banks. Or have cryptocurrency fans figured out a solution that I can't think of now.
      - dd36 12y ago
        It's similar to the idealist trope that tearing everything down to rebuild it will somehow not be subject to corruption and perversion the next time around. As though they've found some way to control human nature. It's unavoidable systemic entropy.

cmapes 12y ago

I agree, it was honestly difficult to read this article and to reconcile the thought that I do business banking with Chase. I've been thinking of a few non-profit startup ideas to combat this widespread corruption problem, but its nothing I'd want to discuss publicly in case I actually pull the trigger on it and desired to remain anonymous. I think you're thinking down the right highway of thought though.

rbshadel 12y ago
As someone else who uses Chase, I'm having trouble with the same reconciliation. As an individual consumer though, what can I do to stop feeding and perpetuating the system? My initial reaction is to "vote with my feet" but is there any bank that isn't similarly suspect? Alternately is it realistic to exit the banking system completely, or is that just wildly impractical? I see a lot of discussion on hackernews about "security vs convenience" (albeit in a completely different context); maybe the parallel here is "morality vs convenience."
- malenm 12y ago
  How about a local credit union?
  - rbshadel 12y ago
    Wow I had a completely incorrect understanding of what credit unions are and what you'd use them for...this looks like exactly the kind of alternative I'd like to explore. Thanks!
- SkyMarshal 12y ago
  Look into credit unions for which you might be eligible, as well as smaller regional banks that don't deal in exotic financial products and in which the management team still feels a personal responsibility to their depositors. patio11's recent blog post on Japan has a good section on what that's like: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ (ctrl-f for "Taro", read about his banking relationship manager) There are still banks in the US that operate like that in principle, if not in degree - no exotic products, strict adherence to traditional corporate lending standards, extensive knowledge of their customers, and a culture ingrained first and foremost with personal responsibility to the soundness of the local economy. Best example I know of is First Hawaiian Bank [1], having worked there a few years. It is actually the longest continually-running bank in the US, having been founded in 1858 and survived every major depression and financial crisis since. They're not on the bleeding edge of tech or quantitative finance, but that's one of the things that saved them from being a victim of the financial crisis (aka, the Battlestar Galactica of banking). Other banks like that scattered around the country too. You can start some research with the various bank rating sites: http://www.bankrate.com/rates/safe-sound/bank-ratings-search.aspx http://www.bankrate.com/rates/safe-sound/bank-ratings-search... http://www.bauerfinancial.com/ http://www.bauerfinancial.com/ [1]:https://www.fhb.com/en/inside-fhb/our-rich-history/ https://www.fhb.com/en/inside-fhb/our-rich-history/

theklub 12y ago

Getting people under 30 to vote in large numbers would be a good start.

canvia 12y ago

Was this the Goldman article? http://www.propublica.org/article/carmen-segarras-secret-recordings-from-inside-new-york-fed http://www.propublica.org/article/carmen-segarras-secret-rec...

josefresco 12y ago

"The entire US infrastructure is corrupt" What makes you think it's limited to the United States? These banks are global, and not global as in "we make shit in China" but global as they do business in almost every major country. In fact, some of the largest financial "crimes" of the events leading to the 2008 financial crisis were conducted not in the US.

vinhboy 12y ago

Speaking of Occupy, this sentence in the article got me all excited > President Obama, giving in to pressure from the Occupy movement and other reformers, had formed the Residential Mortgage-Backed Securities Working Group. I wonder if there is an ounce of truth to that. Too bad Occupy never adopted a leader. If there is anything I learn from that experience, is that there can't be a leader less movement. Someone has to become the face of it.

mercer 12y ago
While my information is probably incomplete and biased, I got the impression Occupy 'failed', or rather is perceived to have failed, had more to do with 1) the fact that there wasn't one concrete issue to have 'success' with, on the whole, and 2) serious efforts by the government to crack down on Occupy in a variety of ways that are worryingly clever. In both cases, it's important to understand that Occupy, at least according to prominent individuals in the movement like David Graeber, was ideologically built on anarchist principles. He argues in his book on the issue that being leaderless and 'horizontal' in nature was actually one reason why it did so well, relatively. To be clear: I'm not sure I agree with his viewpoints or his perspective on the Occupy movement. That said, I can still strongly recommend "The Democracy Project" as an interesting and completely different view of not only the occupy movement, but on Democracy and society as well. I've read a number of his books and articles and I like how they make me question things.

vijayr 12y ago

One thing to do is take our business elsewhere - support credit unions instead of banks like Chase, support farmer's markets instead of big food chains and so on. One could argue that "normal" people might not be able to make much difference, but if 50 or 100 million of us take a very small step, it goes a long way. The biggest problem is that we (almost all of us) have come to value convenience more than anything else - convenience at the risk of privacy, security etc. That needs to change, and it is very hard (I had a colleague flip out the other day, because something he ordered from Amazon was a day late - just one frickin day, and it wasn't even something important or urgent). It requires a fundamental mindset change.

tim333 12y ago

>elect a new generation that hopefully isn't as corrupt It's more the system that need to change than the individuals. Maybe if you could elect a leader that would try to change that stuff. Not sure who. Shame someone like Warren Buffett is not running for president.