5 ms·

Interactive map shows where native and new Berliners live

59 points by moklick 12y ago

flexie 12y ago
Interesting. I wonder whether you wouldn't find the same pattern in many other metropoles. On Manhattan, when I lived there, everybody seemed to be from somewhere else. Maybe this is just a function of the facts that a city center is an expensive place to raise kids and that few aim at living in another city's suburbs; if you are moving to some suburb of another city you might as well just stay in the suburb of the city you are currently in.
- BjoernKW 12y ago
  I think you can compare the centre of Berlin (roughly Mitte, Charlottenburg, Tiergarten, Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg, Prenzlauer Berg) to Manhattan in that respect. Those are the areas where the interesting stuff is happening that makes moving to the city worthwhile. As for Berlin most of the startup activity and economic growth is happening in that area. In addition to that all the important government institutions are located in that area, too. Rapid transit is an important factor as well. Inside the S-Bahn-Ring you can get around really fast whereas getting from say Köpenick to the inner city takes quite some time. I suppose the areas around Manhattan or Greater New York as a whole would show a very similar picture.
- kalli 12y ago
  I wonder whether you wouldn't find the same pattern in many other metropoles. Yeah I'd be interested in seeing similar stats for other cities. Related interesting links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_born#Miscellaneous_regions_with_high_percentage_of_foreign_born_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_born#Miscellaneous_regi... http://randomlylondon.com/map-other-english-borough/ http://randomlylondon.com/map-other-english-borough/
deleted 12y ago
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TeeWEE 12y ago
In amsterdam this is also happening to my knowledge. The main reason is that the city center is becoming too expensive for native-amsterdammers with a medium income to live. Lots of high-income (often expats) are willing to pay more for living in the city center.
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  It seems that we have a global undersupply of city centers and oversupply of boring places noone really wants to live in.
  - TillE 12y ago
    That's true in the US, but not necessarily elsewhere. There are lots of great cities in Germany which could stand for some growth; people have been talking about Leipzig recently.
    - SyneRyder 12y ago
      Deutsche Welle just did a series on Leipzig ("Hypezig") on their Made In Germany show this week: http://www.dw.de/hypezig-the-new-start-up-zone/av-18039297 http://www.dw.de/hypezig-the-new-start-up-zone/av-18039297
    - guard-of-terra 12y ago
      Germany is lucky to be decentralized. But for many countries, everybody seems to be trying to get in the capital - which is an awful dynamics.
CalRobert 12y ago
As someone who moved to a new country, the city center was the only place I really wanted to live because it's the best place from which to get to know a city and make connections. The difference between "I live in the burbs and take the train in to the city center now and then" and "I can walk out my front door and be in a museum, my choice of several pubs, etc. in 5 minutes" is huge. It's also handy for meeting people; you can build networks more easily than when you're geographically separated. Those same networks can be preserved after moving, though. Now that I've been here for a couple years I'd be fine with a nearby (within 2km of city center) suburb, but that's only because I'm familiar enough with the city that I don't need to explore it daily. If I had started off living in those burbs I would know the city much less than I do now.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  I haven't been to Berlin, so I don't know exactly how big it is, but one would not typically call "within 2km of city center" a suburb. One would typically call 2km from a city center, "the next neighborhood over in the city". Suburbs aren't a "not the cool, trendy area of a city" thing. They are a driving thing. They are completely different towns, not other neighborhoods in the same city. It doesn't count if you can easily walk the distance every day. Think more like 20km. I mean, really, Millenium Park in Chicago is almost 2km long. The National Mall in Washington DC is about 3km. Central Park in New York City is over 4km long.
  - xxpor 12y ago
    >I haven't been to Berlin, so I don't know exactly how big it is, but one would not typically call "within 2km of city center" a suburb. One would typically call 2km from a city center, "the next neighborhood over in the city". This is an American/Canadian vs Australian (and possibly European) thing. From speaking to Australians, Downtown is the Central Business District, and everything else is a suburb.
    - moron4hire 12y ago
      It seems weird to think of anything that is a part of the urban area be called sub-urban.
donmb 12y ago
The main problem of this development is the fact that more and more old local people cannot afford the rents anymore and have to move to the suburbs although they have lived in the centre for almost all of their life. A Kiez is changing very quickly: it starts with an abandoned Kiez which everybody avoids - low rents etc. Then creatives come and a scene is developing. Bars/Clubs etc get attracted, more people move there, rents rise, bars/clubs close again -> scene moves somewhere else. Funny is that a lot of my friends who have moved to Berlin complain that their local club/pub has closed (cannot afford rent anymore) but in fact they're responsible for it. Atm Berlin is still an awesome place with a lot of independent spirit but that might dramatically change within the next 10 years.
- TillE 12y ago
  The difference in rents is very small, as far as I can tell. Out of curiosity I've looked for cheap apartments even in the eastern suburbs, but they don't really exist. You'll probably have an easier time getting one, but you won't be paying much less. I pay €450 for a decent two-room place in a beautiful part of Kreuzberg, and it doesn't go much lower than that anywhere in Berlin.
- zura 12y ago
  Hm, is it normal in Berlin to live at some place for many years and still renting the apartment? Instead of buying/owning it...
  - ido 12y ago
    Yes, iirc 90% of people rent here.
  - zurn 12y ago
    Yes, it's one of the places that legislates favourable rules toward the lodger (stringent conditions on rent increases or lease terminations etc). Lots of people even sublet their favourably gotten rental flats onward for more money. Although if people owned the flats, the lower income senior citizens would still move: they would find it expedient to sell their now-expensive flats and put the money to living expenses (or grandchildren or travel or assisted living etc). This is happening in other growing cities around the world. edit: It seems to me renting (or some other form of "right-of-occupancy" arrangement) is actually the desireable choice for most situations. Investing hundreds of thousands in a single unit of housing is not a good fit for most people's savings/investment plan - you'd want to diversify, and possibly hedge against things going downhill in your neighbourhood. If rent market works well, and taxation and rental terms work out, it's better for everybody to just pay for the apartment's financing and maintenance plus a small profit margin in the form of rent.
yantramanav 12y ago
The influx of new Berliners in Mitte, Neukölln, Schöneberg etc is not totally unexpected. A lot of new residents moved there in the past 4-5 years and they're much sought after. What's interesting here is the influx of new Berliners in areas like Lichtenberg and Marzahn. These were traditionally perceived as DDR remnants and full of neo-nazis. Also what's happening in Tegeler Forst kiez?
iuguy 12y ago
As someone who attempted (and failed) to move to Prenzlauer Berg earlier this year, I can honestly say that it was really rare to interact with native Berliners because they were pretty hard to find. When I stayed in Wedding there were plenty of what you and I might call native Berliners, but locals wouldn't (mostly of Turkish descent), although I did find more in the Hansaviertel than the stats would show, but I think I was better at interacting with local people by then.
- TillE 12y ago
  Bear in mind that this map is simply showing people born in Berlin (which would include second generation immigrants) vs. elsewhere (including other Germans). If you're interested in non-Germans in Berlin, that's this map: http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/migranten-in-berlin/ http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/migranten-in-berlin/
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    It's a curious sight: Russians seem to be very correlated with East Berlin (having arrived after the wall fell anyway). And e.g. Poles don't.

59 points by moklick 12y ago

Interesting. I wonder whether you wouldn't find the same pattern in many other metropoles. On Manhattan, when I lived there, everybody seemed to be from somewhere else. Maybe this is just a function of the facts that a city center is an expensive place to raise kids and that few aim at living in another city's suburbs; if you are moving to some suburb of another city you might as well just stay in the suburb of the city you are currently in.

BjoernKW 12y ago
I think you can compare the centre of Berlin (roughly Mitte, Charlottenburg, Tiergarten, Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg, Prenzlauer Berg) to Manhattan in that respect. Those are the areas where the interesting stuff is happening that makes moving to the city worthwhile. As for Berlin most of the startup activity and economic growth is happening in that area. In addition to that all the important government institutions are located in that area, too. Rapid transit is an important factor as well. Inside the S-Bahn-Ring you can get around really fast whereas getting from say Köpenick to the inner city takes quite some time. I suppose the areas around Manhattan or Greater New York as a whole would show a very similar picture.
kalli 12y ago
I wonder whether you wouldn't find the same pattern in many other metropoles. Yeah I'd be interested in seeing similar stats for other cities. Related interesting links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_born#Miscellaneous_regions_with_high_percentage_of_foreign_born_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_born#Miscellaneous_regi... http://randomlylondon.com/map-other-english-borough/ http://randomlylondon.com/map-other-english-borough/

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

TeeWEE 12y ago

In amsterdam this is also happening to my knowledge. The main reason is that the city center is becoming too expensive for native-amsterdammers with a medium income to live. Lots of high-income (often expats) are willing to pay more for living in the city center.

guard-of-terra 12y ago
It seems that we have a global undersupply of city centers and oversupply of boring places noone really wants to live in.
- TillE 12y ago
  That's true in the US, but not necessarily elsewhere. There are lots of great cities in Germany which could stand for some growth; people have been talking about Leipzig recently.
  - SyneRyder 12y ago
    Deutsche Welle just did a series on Leipzig ("Hypezig") on their Made In Germany show this week: http://www.dw.de/hypezig-the-new-start-up-zone/av-18039297 http://www.dw.de/hypezig-the-new-start-up-zone/av-18039297
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    Germany is lucky to be decentralized. But for many countries, everybody seems to be trying to get in the capital - which is an awful dynamics.

CalRobert 12y ago

As someone who moved to a new country, the city center was the only place I really wanted to live because it's the best place from which to get to know a city and make connections. The difference between "I live in the burbs and take the train in to the city center now and then" and "I can walk out my front door and be in a museum, my choice of several pubs, etc. in 5 minutes" is huge. It's also handy for meeting people; you can build networks more easily than when you're geographically separated. Those same networks can be preserved after moving, though. Now that I've been here for a couple years I'd be fine with a nearby (within 2km of city center) suburb, but that's only because I'm familiar enough with the city that I don't need to explore it daily. If I had started off living in those burbs I would know the city much less than I do now.

moron4hire 12y ago
I haven't been to Berlin, so I don't know exactly how big it is, but one would not typically call "within 2km of city center" a suburb. One would typically call 2km from a city center, "the next neighborhood over in the city". Suburbs aren't a "not the cool, trendy area of a city" thing. They are a driving thing. They are completely different towns, not other neighborhoods in the same city. It doesn't count if you can easily walk the distance every day. Think more like 20km. I mean, really, Millenium Park in Chicago is almost 2km long. The National Mall in Washington DC is about 3km. Central Park in New York City is over 4km long.
- xxpor 12y ago
  >I haven't been to Berlin, so I don't know exactly how big it is, but one would not typically call "within 2km of city center" a suburb. One would typically call 2km from a city center, "the next neighborhood over in the city". This is an American/Canadian vs Australian (and possibly European) thing. From speaking to Australians, Downtown is the Central Business District, and everything else is a suburb.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    It seems weird to think of anything that is a part of the urban area be called sub-urban.

donmb 12y ago

The main problem of this development is the fact that more and more old local people cannot afford the rents anymore and have to move to the suburbs although they have lived in the centre for almost all of their life. A Kiez is changing very quickly: it starts with an abandoned Kiez which everybody avoids - low rents etc. Then creatives come and a scene is developing. Bars/Clubs etc get attracted, more people move there, rents rise, bars/clubs close again -> scene moves somewhere else. Funny is that a lot of my friends who have moved to Berlin complain that their local club/pub has closed (cannot afford rent anymore) but in fact they're responsible for it. Atm Berlin is still an awesome place with a lot of independent spirit but that might dramatically change within the next 10 years.

TillE 12y ago
The difference in rents is very small, as far as I can tell. Out of curiosity I've looked for cheap apartments even in the eastern suburbs, but they don't really exist. You'll probably have an easier time getting one, but you won't be paying much less. I pay €450 for a decent two-room place in a beautiful part of Kreuzberg, and it doesn't go much lower than that anywhere in Berlin.
zura 12y ago
Hm, is it normal in Berlin to live at some place for many years and still renting the apartment? Instead of buying/owning it...
- ido 12y ago
  Yes, iirc 90% of people rent here.
- zurn 12y ago
  Yes, it's one of the places that legislates favourable rules toward the lodger (stringent conditions on rent increases or lease terminations etc). Lots of people even sublet their favourably gotten rental flats onward for more money. Although if people owned the flats, the lower income senior citizens would still move: they would find it expedient to sell their now-expensive flats and put the money to living expenses (or grandchildren or travel or assisted living etc). This is happening in other growing cities around the world. edit: It seems to me renting (or some other form of "right-of-occupancy" arrangement) is actually the desireable choice for most situations. Investing hundreds of thousands in a single unit of housing is not a good fit for most people's savings/investment plan - you'd want to diversify, and possibly hedge against things going downhill in your neighbourhood. If rent market works well, and taxation and rental terms work out, it's better for everybody to just pay for the apartment's financing and maintenance plus a small profit margin in the form of rent.

yantramanav 12y ago

The influx of new Berliners in Mitte, Neukölln, Schöneberg etc is not totally unexpected. A lot of new residents moved there in the past 4-5 years and they're much sought after. What's interesting here is the influx of new Berliners in areas like Lichtenberg and Marzahn. These were traditionally perceived as DDR remnants and full of neo-nazis. Also what's happening in Tegeler Forst kiez?

iuguy 12y ago

As someone who attempted (and failed) to move to Prenzlauer Berg earlier this year, I can honestly say that it was really rare to interact with native Berliners because they were pretty hard to find. When I stayed in Wedding there were plenty of what you and I might call native Berliners, but locals wouldn't (mostly of Turkish descent), although I did find more in the Hansaviertel than the stats would show, but I think I was better at interacting with local people by then.

TillE 12y ago
Bear in mind that this map is simply showing people born in Berlin (which would include second generation immigrants) vs. elsewhere (including other Germans). If you're interested in non-Germans in Berlin, that's this map: http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/migranten-in-berlin/ http://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/migranten-in-berlin/
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  It's a curious sight: Russians seem to be very correlated with East Berlin (having arrived after the wall fell anyway). And e.g. Poles don't.