5 ms·

Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to death is not on the list of requirements, and in fact can often be counter-productive.

by snewman 12y ago

Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to death is not on the list of requirements, and in fact can often be counter-productive. If you're passionate about your job, you're likely to work hard. But there's a line between "working hard", and overworking. Beyond a certain point, more hours may (or may not) mean more things done, but almost certainly doesn't mean more of the right things done.

the_cat_kittles 12y ago
well said. as a corollary, id say that finding the right balance is really energizing. in some sense, i think its backwards to decide you want to do something "great"- i think its better to get in tune with what kind of processes and styles you like, and let that dictate where you go, knowing that because you are doing things that are suited to you, you are going to progress much faster.
sillysaurus3 12y ago
Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to death is not on the list of requirements If that's true, it should be possible to make a list of companies that have been built without the founders working very hard (or rather, extremely long hours). What are some companies that could go onto such a list? As a filter, let's use criteria "The founders got rich enough not to have to work anymore, or the company went public," since that's generally why people start startups. EDIT: I've updated the question to ask specifically for instances of companies that have IPO'd or been acquired without the founders working extremely long hours, and also to clarify that I'm asking about the founders' working hours, not the employees. Thanks, enjo.
- enjo 12y ago
  You got the wrong phrase. The question is can you build a successful company without working long hours, not "without working very hard". At Quickoffice we worked very hard. We'd have the occasional long night, but there weren't many even 60 hour weeks being put in.
- hemantv 12y ago
  I think you are confusing working hard vs working to death. I work hard everyday but at some point in a given day I realize that I am not productive anymore. If something is menial, doesn't require much mental process. Than its okay to keep going but if its something new which require even small amount of mental effort than working super hard is not going to get you anywhere. I also sometimes work late, because I don't want the context switch that will happen if I leave the task in half completed state right now so I want to take it to logical conclusion where it would easy to pickup next day (in most cases I am excited to see the end product of task). As with everything in life there is fine line between working hard vs working yourself to death and nobody else can decide this line for you.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    I agree with everything you've said, but if it's true that you can get rich from a startup without working extremely long hours, we should be able to find some evidence of that. And if there's no evidence, then maybe we should rethink whether it's true.
    - ridgeguy 12y ago
      Most founders work very hard, often to destructive excess as portrayed in the article. And most startups fail. This suggests that hard work is weakly correlated with startup success. If so, a dearth of examples of successful startups by founders lacking a chronic death-march work ethic doesn't speak at all to whether burnout is a requirement for success.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      The HP garage was a part time venture.
- akerl_ 12y ago
  That's quite the strawman. Nobody is claiming success doesn't require hard work. But there's a serious gap between working hard and working yourself into an early grave.
- lemming 12y ago
  And since we're using the criteria of The founders got rich enough not to have to work anymore, or the company went public, which I think is totally accurate in 99% of cases, let's please stop talking about Doing Great Things, which has nothing to do with the above. Let's be honest, most founders are in it to get filthy rich, not to improve the world. Sometimes the two go hand in hand, but less than the startup world thinks.
- chollida1 12y ago
  Start with Jeff Hawkins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Hawkins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Hawkins I remember hearing him lecture where he said he always tried to be home by 5:30 to have dinner with his family. Grid, Palm, Numenta, Handspring, are all great successes.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    Awesome, thank you! This is a great example. It's strange to see evidence that founders don't always have to work most evenings. I wonder why the culture surrounding startups has gone in the opposite direction.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      I suspect people do it as social signaling because they don't want to be thought of as not dedicated. If people were more worried about results than appearances, they would not do this though as working that much leads to stupid mistakes and burn-out. It might make sense if you are just trying to cash out and want to put on a good show for investors by sleeping under your desk, though I would think this only impresses stupid investors. Is instructive to see the environments where this goes the other way. In Oxford and Cambridge Universities there is the concept of the 'Grey Man'. These are the people who are seen to work hard and it used to be considered a terrible affliction and an indication of mediocre talents. Consider this quote from Stephen Hawking “The prevailing attitude at Oxford at that time was very anti-work. You were supposed to either be brilliant without effort or accept your limitations and get a fourth-class degree. To work hard to get a better class of degree was the mark of a ‘grey man’, the worst epithet in the Oxford vocabulary.” Hawking calculated that he worked on average for about an hour a day as an undergraduate physicist: “We affected an air of complete boredom and the feeling that nothing was worth making an effort for.” from here - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e59f5792-1a23-11e3-b3da-00144feab7de.html http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e59f5792-1a23-11e3-b3da-00144feab7...
- rimantas 12y ago
  Wasn't Basecamp started as a side project of 37Signals where DHH spent like 10 hours a week working on it? And yes Basecamp is now a company and god nows how many businesses are involved with Ruby on Rails.
dcw303 12y ago
Great point. No matter how engrossing or important the work I'm doing is, I've never been able to push myself to work past midnight. Something biological tells me I am done, my brain turns to soup, and I know I've gone past the point of diminishing returns. I've never been able to fool myself into believing that there is any point in doing any more. I look at these guys pushing themselves beyond the point of physical, mental and emotion exhaustion, and I just wonder how they do it. I wonder what drives them go on.
- jqm 12y ago
  and whatever it is... is it legal?

by snewman 12y ago

the_cat_kittles 12y ago

well said. as a corollary, id say that finding the right balance is really energizing. in some sense, i think its backwards to decide you want to do something "great"- i think its better to get in tune with what kind of processes and styles you like, and let that dictate where you go, knowing that because you are doing things that are suited to you, you are going to progress much faster.

sillysaurus3 12y ago

Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to death is not on the list of requirements If that's true, it should be possible to make a list of companies that have been built without the founders working very hard (or rather, extremely long hours). What are some companies that could go onto such a list? As a filter, let's use criteria "The founders got rich enough not to have to work anymore, or the company went public," since that's generally why people start startups. EDIT: I've updated the question to ask specifically for instances of companies that have IPO'd or been acquired without the founders working extremely long hours, and also to clarify that I'm asking about the founders' working hours, not the employees. Thanks, enjo.

enjo 12y ago
You got the wrong phrase. The question is can you build a successful company without working long hours, not "without working very hard". At Quickoffice we worked very hard. We'd have the occasional long night, but there weren't many even 60 hour weeks being put in.
hemantv 12y ago
I think you are confusing working hard vs working to death. I work hard everyday but at some point in a given day I realize that I am not productive anymore. If something is menial, doesn't require much mental process. Than its okay to keep going but if its something new which require even small amount of mental effort than working super hard is not going to get you anywhere. I also sometimes work late, because I don't want the context switch that will happen if I leave the task in half completed state right now so I want to take it to logical conclusion where it would easy to pickup next day (in most cases I am excited to see the end product of task). As with everything in life there is fine line between working hard vs working yourself to death and nobody else can decide this line for you.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  I agree with everything you've said, but if it's true that you can get rich from a startup without working extremely long hours, we should be able to find some evidence of that. And if there's no evidence, then maybe we should rethink whether it's true.
  - ridgeguy 12y ago
    Most founders work very hard, often to destructive excess as portrayed in the article. And most startups fail. This suggests that hard work is weakly correlated with startup success. If so, a dearth of examples of successful startups by founders lacking a chronic death-march work ethic doesn't speak at all to whether burnout is a requirement for success.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    The HP garage was a part time venture.
akerl_ 12y ago
That's quite the strawman. Nobody is claiming success doesn't require hard work. But there's a serious gap between working hard and working yourself into an early grave.
lemming 12y ago
And since we're using the criteria of The founders got rich enough not to have to work anymore, or the company went public, which I think is totally accurate in 99% of cases, let's please stop talking about Doing Great Things, which has nothing to do with the above. Let's be honest, most founders are in it to get filthy rich, not to improve the world. Sometimes the two go hand in hand, but less than the startup world thinks.
chollida1 12y ago
Start with Jeff Hawkins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Hawkins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Hawkins I remember hearing him lecture where he said he always tried to be home by 5:30 to have dinner with his family. Grid, Palm, Numenta, Handspring, are all great successes.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Awesome, thank you! This is a great example. It's strange to see evidence that founders don't always have to work most evenings. I wonder why the culture surrounding startups has gone in the opposite direction.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    I suspect people do it as social signaling because they don't want to be thought of as not dedicated. If people were more worried about results than appearances, they would not do this though as working that much leads to stupid mistakes and burn-out. It might make sense if you are just trying to cash out and want to put on a good show for investors by sleeping under your desk, though I would think this only impresses stupid investors. Is instructive to see the environments where this goes the other way. In Oxford and Cambridge Universities there is the concept of the 'Grey Man'. These are the people who are seen to work hard and it used to be considered a terrible affliction and an indication of mediocre talents. Consider this quote from Stephen Hawking “The prevailing attitude at Oxford at that time was very anti-work. You were supposed to either be brilliant without effort or accept your limitations and get a fourth-class degree. To work hard to get a better class of degree was the mark of a ‘grey man’, the worst epithet in the Oxford vocabulary.” Hawking calculated that he worked on average for about an hour a day as an undergraduate physicist: “We affected an air of complete boredom and the feeling that nothing was worth making an effort for.” from here - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e59f5792-1a23-11e3-b3da-00144feab7de.html http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e59f5792-1a23-11e3-b3da-00144feab7...
rimantas 12y ago
Wasn't Basecamp started as a side project of 37Signals where DHH spent like 10 hours a week working on it? And yes Basecamp is now a company and god nows how many businesses are involved with Ruby on Rails.

dcw303 12y ago

Great point. No matter how engrossing or important the work I'm doing is, I've never been able to push myself to work past midnight. Something biological tells me I am done, my brain turns to soup, and I know I've gone past the point of diminishing returns. I've never been able to fool myself into believing that there is any point in doing any more. I look at these guys pushing themselves beyond the point of physical, mental and emotion exhaustion, and I just wonder how they do it. I wonder what drives them go on.

jqm 12y ago
and whatever it is... is it legal?