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To everyone worried about privacy: We all trust our e-mail to be stored in the cloud, we store sensitive files etc on services like dropbox, we trust that our

by leeber 12y ago

To everyone worried about privacy: We all trust our e-mail to be stored in the cloud, we store sensitive files etc on services like dropbox, we trust that our operating systems aren't collecting/sending data, etc. You're already using and relying upon MANY services with the ability (if they really wanted to) to steal TONS of private information from you. It all comes down to trust. But don't pretend like this opens up some new door for privacy concerns. Ex. If Apple wanted to, they could watch us through our macbook cameras and listen to us all the time. But we trust that they don't. Same thing here.

cvburgess 12y ago
The main selling point of a macbook is not that it can identify exactly what you say, when you said it, and send that data back to a central server that is "always getting smarter". There is also a VERY big difference for me between the things that I type into my computer and the conversations I have in my home. I say many things in an imperfect form or with a dry sense of humor - I rarely save incomplete or out-of-context thoughts to a .pages file on Dropbox.
- leeber 12y ago
  Who cares about what the selling point is? Neither Amazon Echo or Apple is claiming to secretly listen to your most intimate and private conversations, so it can report everything you say over to the NSA. BUT, those are two devices that would have full capabilities to do so if they really wanted to. The point is, we trust (or do not) that these services that have access to sensitive information -- are only doing what they CLAIM they are doing with regards to privacy.
- mod 12y ago
  But the macbook can do that, possibly better in fact, as it has more resources at its disposal to analyze your audio. As GP said, you're trusting that it doesn't.
  - cvburgess 12y ago
    100% - but the fact of the matter is that almost ALL the Echo does is analyze audio over remote servers. If Apple is doing it, it is covert and would upset a LOT of people if they found out.
colinbartlett 12y ago
That's the worst argument I've ever seen. "You either trust them with everything or you don't."
- mod 12y ago
  Can you elaborate? The argument made sense to me.
- LLWM 12y ago
  It's correct. Do you just not want to admit you've made such a rookie mistake?
justcommenting 12y ago
no, not everyone does and i think reinforcing that belief is harmful because it makes people think they don't have a choice, when they really do. there are a growing number of people who freely choose alternatives that respect their privacy/dignity/rights. i am one of those people. to the extent i can't control all data about me (e.g. to pay my taxes or get health insurance), that's pretty different than choosing to buy a consumer device designed to record and transmit your voice from inside of your home.
- leeber 12y ago
  What alternatives have you chosen that makes you feel more secure? I'm genuinely curious.
  - justcommenting 12y ago
    the commenter mentioned e-mail (self-hosted, though i can't control recipients' copies), files (offline drives/tahoe-lafs if needed), and operating systems (mostly debian without binary blobs). my choices don't necessarily make me feel more secure--just was pointing out that not everyone is already trusting major tech companies with all of their data all of the time. alternatives that better respect my privacy/rights/autonomy really do exist and people really do have choices. these choices are getting easier to make all the time, too, e.g. owncloud.
- LLWM 12y ago
  Most people do, and the few that avoid such things will avoid this too.
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
We all trust our e-mail to be stored in the cloud. A lot of people have their own elaborate personal mail setups. we store sensitive files etc on services like dropbox A lot of people do not, and it is absolutely trivial not to (unlike say, being totally independent of webmail providers). we trust that our operating systems aren't collecting/sending data Trust is not created equal. For example, it is not a stretch at all for someone to think that OpenBSD is more trustworthy than Windows when it comes to security and privacy, and to sleep well at night with reasonable confidence as to the validity of that assertion.
- leeber 12y ago
  Ok, let me re-phrase a little bit. I am asserting my belief that a large majority of people who voice privacy concerns over things like amazon echo are the same people who do in fact use many cloud services. I find it to be ironic if my assertion is true. Furthermore, I think it all comes down to our perception, and our perception does not accurately reflect "potential to be misused". Our perception is that gmail, dropbox, facebook, apps which store data, etc. are all relatively low threat. However a device that is marketed to record our voices in our homes is perceive to be high threat. In reality though, the "potential to be misused" is present in ALL times we trust a 3rd party with access to our information, or even the potential ability to access our information, or cameras, or recording devices (including phones and laptops). So like I said, it comes down to trust. Trust amazon or don't. Trust dropbox or don't. Trust your smartphones, or don't. Potential to be misused is equal among ANYTHING that has listening or recording capabilities built in to it.
wtetzner 12y ago
There's a difference between people being able to steal data from your email or computer, and having something record everything you say in the "privacy" of your own home.
plicense 12y ago
>Ex. If Apple wanted to, they could watch us through our macbook cameras and listen to us all the time. Which reminds me that my Macbook camera is broken :'(
diversewhat 12y ago
I have one of these http://www.webcamerablocker.com/ http://www.webcamerablocker.com/ on ALL of my devices with a camera, on my smartphones i've covered the cameras with a small square of duct-tape, on my laptops i've ripped out the microphone arrays or disconnected them and use the Mic input with a head-set if required. I run my own mail server (although i hate having to email people @gmail.com etc) and i only store my emails locally. I don't use dropbox, i don't use cloud storage providers at all. When I have to upload things, I encrypt them first. I run almost everything through TOR, that includes all my web-browsing on my phone even. There are a thousand ways that data can be collected about you these days given the technology we use, but I like to think i do a reasonable job at avoiding all of the bulk of them though. Nothing is perfect, but i'll be damned if i'm going to make it easy for anyone.

by leeber 12y ago

cvburgess 12y ago

The main selling point of a macbook is not that it can identify exactly what you say, when you said it, and send that data back to a central server that is "always getting smarter". There is also a VERY big difference for me between the things that I type into my computer and the conversations I have in my home. I say many things in an imperfect form or with a dry sense of humor - I rarely save incomplete or out-of-context thoughts to a .pages file on Dropbox.

leeber 12y ago
Who cares about what the selling point is? Neither Amazon Echo or Apple is claiming to secretly listen to your most intimate and private conversations, so it can report everything you say over to the NSA. BUT, those are two devices that would have full capabilities to do so if they really wanted to. The point is, we trust (or do not) that these services that have access to sensitive information -- are only doing what they CLAIM they are doing with regards to privacy.
mod 12y ago
But the macbook can do that, possibly better in fact, as it has more resources at its disposal to analyze your audio. As GP said, you're trusting that it doesn't.
- cvburgess 12y ago
  100% - but the fact of the matter is that almost ALL the Echo does is analyze audio over remote servers. If Apple is doing it, it is covert and would upset a LOT of people if they found out.

colinbartlett 12y ago

That's the worst argument I've ever seen. "You either trust them with everything or you don't."

mod 12y ago
Can you elaborate? The argument made sense to me.
LLWM 12y ago
It's correct. Do you just not want to admit you've made such a rookie mistake?

justcommenting 12y ago

no, not everyone does and i think reinforcing that belief is harmful because it makes people think they don't have a choice, when they really do. there are a growing number of people who freely choose alternatives that respect their privacy/dignity/rights. i am one of those people. to the extent i can't control all data about me (e.g. to pay my taxes or get health insurance), that's pretty different than choosing to buy a consumer device designed to record and transmit your voice from inside of your home.

leeber 12y ago
What alternatives have you chosen that makes you feel more secure? I'm genuinely curious.
- justcommenting 12y ago
  the commenter mentioned e-mail (self-hosted, though i can't control recipients' copies), files (offline drives/tahoe-lafs if needed), and operating systems (mostly debian without binary blobs). my choices don't necessarily make me feel more secure--just was pointing out that not everyone is already trusting major tech companies with all of their data all of the time. alternatives that better respect my privacy/rights/autonomy really do exist and people really do have choices. these choices are getting easier to make all the time, too, e.g. owncloud.
LLWM 12y ago
Most people do, and the few that avoid such things will avoid this too.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

We all trust our e-mail to be stored in the cloud. A lot of people have their own elaborate personal mail setups. we store sensitive files etc on services like dropbox A lot of people do not, and it is absolutely trivial not to (unlike say, being totally independent of webmail providers). we trust that our operating systems aren't collecting/sending data Trust is not created equal. For example, it is not a stretch at all for someone to think that OpenBSD is more trustworthy than Windows when it comes to security and privacy, and to sleep well at night with reasonable confidence as to the validity of that assertion.

leeber 12y ago
Ok, let me re-phrase a little bit. I am asserting my belief that a large majority of people who voice privacy concerns over things like amazon echo are the same people who do in fact use many cloud services. I find it to be ironic if my assertion is true. Furthermore, I think it all comes down to our perception, and our perception does not accurately reflect "potential to be misused". Our perception is that gmail, dropbox, facebook, apps which store data, etc. are all relatively low threat. However a device that is marketed to record our voices in our homes is perceive to be high threat. In reality though, the "potential to be misused" is present in ALL times we trust a 3rd party with access to our information, or even the potential ability to access our information, or cameras, or recording devices (including phones and laptops). So like I said, it comes down to trust. Trust amazon or don't. Trust dropbox or don't. Trust your smartphones, or don't. Potential to be misused is equal among ANYTHING that has listening or recording capabilities built in to it.

wtetzner 12y ago

There's a difference between people being able to steal data from your email or computer, and having something record everything you say in the "privacy" of your own home.

plicense 12y ago

>Ex. If Apple wanted to, they could watch us through our macbook cameras and listen to us all the time. Which reminds me that my Macbook camera is broken :'(

diversewhat 12y ago

I have one of these http://www.webcamerablocker.com/ http://www.webcamerablocker.com/ on ALL of my devices with a camera, on my smartphones i've covered the cameras with a small square of duct-tape, on my laptops i've ripped out the microphone arrays or disconnected them and use the Mic input with a head-set if required. I run my own mail server (although i hate having to email people @gmail.com etc) and i only store my emails locally. I don't use dropbox, i don't use cloud storage providers at all. When I have to upload things, I encrypt them first. I run almost everything through TOR, that includes all my web-browsing on my phone even. There are a thousand ways that data can be collected about you these days given the technology we use, but I like to think i do a reasonable job at avoiding all of the bulk of them though. Nothing is perfect, but i'll be damned if i'm going to make it easy for anyone.