7 ms·

You have enumerated a list of the worst services available to today's consumer. In none of those areas has there been any significant improvement in service le

by nickff 12y ago

You have enumerated a list of the worst services available to today's consumer. In none of those areas has there been any significant improvement in service level, cost, efficiency, or technology for many years (, though you could argue 'smart meters' will be a small step forward for electricity). Governments regularly use all of these utilities as revenue-raising 'businesses', which they consistently strip of any capital that could be used for infrastructure improvements. In addition, some of the services have consistently proven unreliable, as they are run for the benefit of certain special interest groups at the expense of everyone else. Water is subsidized for farmers and golf courses, and this often causes everyone else to suffer droughts. Roads are often subsidized for truckers, which causes everyone else to pay higher gas taxes than they should, and suffer damaged road surfaces. Police departments are poorly regulated, and the policemen protect each other, resulting in the consistent and horrific violation of the rights of many people on a regular basis. Fire departments are run for the firemen, as can be seen from the fact that the number of paid firemen has been consistently increasing over the last 50 years, despite the increase of fire resistance of buildings, and the decrease of blazes. All of these utilities also have some of the worst customer service available. On could argue that it is possible to get roads fixed through the city council, but this is the only one of the utilities mentioned which gives the consumer a modicum of recourse. In short, if you are going to argue that ISPs should be a utility, please describe how it will be different from the existing ones, not how it will be the same.

gt565k 12y ago
Chattanooga is a great example of providing internet by the local government http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/17/how-chattanooga-beat-google-fiber-by-half-a-decade/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/17...
- danielweber 12y ago
  My sister lives in a town in Massachusetts with community-run Internet. She's always freaking out about broadband caps, violation of which apparently triggers massive fees.
  - ianlevesque 12y ago
    Yes, this one anecdote must mean the entire concept of municipal broadband is untenable.
    - ams6110 12y ago
      This whole subthread has offered nothing but anecdotal evidence.
    - rhino369 12y ago
      You can't pull this card after one person rebuts a single anecdote with another.
  - eksith 12y ago
    Is the internet truly municipal or is only the fibre community owned? The distinction is important as a lot of private ISPs pay the local government a fee to use their existing infrastructure, while they provide the connectivity to the rest of the internet. This arrangement also comes with the ISP's own flavor of EULA.
  - blocktuw 12y ago
    Can you elaborate on which town and who provides the service? The example above you cited Chattanooga and epbfi.com website that basic service costs $57.99/mo for 100 Mbs internet with no reference to a cap. Your comment seems disingenuous that you don't provide any details.
    - simoncion 12y ago
      EDIT: I can't read. :/ The linked article mentions that by Oct, 2013, the price for 1Gbit from EPB was reduced ~$70/month, and the folks who were paying ~$58 for 100mbit got bumped to 1Gbit at no additional charge.
  - Zigurd 12y ago
    I live in Massachusetts and I would have surely heard about this Stalinist regime. Where are these broadband Bolsheviks?
ssmoot 12y ago
It's like you live in a parallel universe from me. My water, electricity, etc utilities are far more reliable (probably by an order of magnitude) than any private service I've experienced. They don't cut corners in design or safety, and when there is a problem, it's far easier to get in touch with them (they're usually already aware of it and don't pretend to act surprised like say your Telco or ISP) and scheduling is more flexible. Case in point: I was wondering if my home water pressure could be increased at the meter. I'd gotten conflicting advice from plumbers. I called up one afternoon. They said they'd send someone out to check. I got a knock on my door at 8PM that same evening. I told him I measured 42psi at the hose bib, which was over the zone's minimum of 36. Which was disappointing to me. But still. The level of service just floored me. I've never experienced anything close to that from Time Warner, DiSH, AT&T, T-Mobile, you-name-it. I replaced my 150amp electric meter with a 200amp meter (city provided), it was inspected for less than most people would bother getting out of bed for and I had a fire hazard from our "new to us" house replaced with almost no cost from the utility. I also feel like I get a lot more for my dollar. Obviously the power grid is far more complex than Time Warner's cabling. Not to mention it can kill you. From TWC I get internet access. From the electric company I get 100% Wind Power generated electricity (for an additional $0.5 I believe), and hundreds of kilowatts of power each and every month. I never give a thought to wether my sewer service is going to work. It doesn't have "off" days where it backs up a bit. My water doesn't decide to stop flowing every once in awhile so I have to try turning the faucet off and on until it works. When we moved in a couple years ago, I thought I smelled gas outside near the meter. Someone came out within 30 minutes. They found a minor leak (someone in the alley actually ran into the meter!), had it fixed up in no time flat. No charge. If an ISP could come close to my Utilities experience I'd be overjoyed personally. And it'd be the last time I ever saw an Early Termination Fee, obscene equipment charges for commodity hardware, it'd actually work 99.999% of the time, and (maybe the biggest issue of all with ISPs) I'd actually get the service level I'm paying for.
- emcrazyone 12y ago
  seemingly good point but I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Providing electrical power, sewage lines, etc.. is not very difficult compared to handling Internet traffic. To make more clear what I mean, I wonder how your electric company would deal with a set of problems like when a torrent shows up on one of your customer's computers? Not to mention that IT support is probably more expensive than having your gas line checked for a leak.
wvenable 12y ago
> You have enumerated a list of the worst services available to today's consumer. All these services probably have a better consumer rating than your Internet provider.
internet_arguer 12y ago
> Governments regularly use all of these utilities as revenue-raising 'businesses', which they consistently strip of any capital that could be used for infrastructure improvements. Is there any evidence of this? I was unable to find anything of value in a cursory web search. I found a couple of counter-examples, such as the Enron (NYSE:ENE) scandal of intentionally causing blackouts and brownouts. > worst services available In many places, e.g. DC area, electricity (PEPCO) takes a long time to be restored and is objectively bad. However, regulated utilities are bound to serve rural and otherwise unprofitable customers. > Roads are often subsidized for truckers How do you get your food, iPhones, and button-up shirts? > Water is subsidized for farmers and golf courses, and this often causes everyone else to suffer droughts. Agreed that it is suboptimal for golf courses and manufacturers (including breweries) to use disproportionate amounts of water. Farmers? Maybe if they're raising livestock or other luxury food products. Causing droughts? How?
- eru 12y ago
  The comment about subsidized water for farmers applies to eg California. Yes, the water rights for farmers there are a serious mess and cause problems.
rdtsc 12y ago
> You have enumerated a list of the worst services available to today's consumer. Are you being sarcastic or trolling, can't tell. What are the worst services? Water? You need better water? You need competition for water and would like 5 companies to lay water pipes through the neighborhoods? You know strawberry flavored water, some with extra calcium ions, maybe one with beer flavor. > Roads are often subsidized for truckers, which causes everyone else to pay higher gas taxes than they should, and suffer damaged road surfaces Maybe we should tax truckers more. Wait, we do that. The easiest way to do it is to tax diesel fuel at the moment. Not ideal but we something is already in place. > Police departments are poorly regulated, Well go vote against it then. I don't remember having even the ability to vote on how good or crappy I want my Verizon FIOS experience to be.

by nickff 12y ago

gt565k 12y ago

Chattanooga is a great example of providing internet by the local government http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/17/how-chattanooga-beat-google-fiber-by-half-a-decade/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/17...

danielweber 12y ago
My sister lives in a town in Massachusetts with community-run Internet. She's always freaking out about broadband caps, violation of which apparently triggers massive fees.
- ianlevesque 12y ago
  Yes, this one anecdote must mean the entire concept of municipal broadband is untenable.
  - ams6110 12y ago
    This whole subthread has offered nothing but anecdotal evidence.
  - rhino369 12y ago
    You can't pull this card after one person rebuts a single anecdote with another.
- eksith 12y ago
  Is the internet truly municipal or is only the fibre community owned? The distinction is important as a lot of private ISPs pay the local government a fee to use their existing infrastructure, while they provide the connectivity to the rest of the internet. This arrangement also comes with the ISP's own flavor of EULA.
- blocktuw 12y ago
  Can you elaborate on which town and who provides the service? The example above you cited Chattanooga and epbfi.com website that basic service costs $57.99/mo for 100 Mbs internet with no reference to a cap. Your comment seems disingenuous that you don't provide any details.
  - simoncion 12y ago
    EDIT: I can't read. :/ The linked article mentions that by Oct, 2013, the price for 1Gbit from EPB was reduced ~$70/month, and the folks who were paying ~$58 for 100mbit got bumped to 1Gbit at no additional charge.
- Zigurd 12y ago
  I live in Massachusetts and I would have surely heard about this Stalinist regime. Where are these broadband Bolsheviks?

ssmoot 12y ago

It's like you live in a parallel universe from me. My water, electricity, etc utilities are far more reliable (probably by an order of magnitude) than any private service I've experienced. They don't cut corners in design or safety, and when there is a problem, it's far easier to get in touch with them (they're usually already aware of it and don't pretend to act surprised like say your Telco or ISP) and scheduling is more flexible. Case in point: I was wondering if my home water pressure could be increased at the meter. I'd gotten conflicting advice from plumbers. I called up one afternoon. They said they'd send someone out to check. I got a knock on my door at 8PM that same evening. I told him I measured 42psi at the hose bib, which was over the zone's minimum of 36. Which was disappointing to me. But still. The level of service just floored me. I've never experienced anything close to that from Time Warner, DiSH, AT&T, T-Mobile, you-name-it. I replaced my 150amp electric meter with a 200amp meter (city provided), it was inspected for less than most people would bother getting out of bed for and I had a fire hazard from our "new to us" house replaced with almost no cost from the utility. I also feel like I get a lot more for my dollar. Obviously the power grid is far more complex than Time Warner's cabling. Not to mention it can kill you. From TWC I get internet access. From the electric company I get 100% Wind Power generated electricity (for an additional $0.5 I believe), and hundreds of kilowatts of power each and every month. I never give a thought to wether my sewer service is going to work. It doesn't have "off" days where it backs up a bit. My water doesn't decide to stop flowing every once in awhile so I have to try turning the faucet off and on until it works. When we moved in a couple years ago, I thought I smelled gas outside near the meter. Someone came out within 30 minutes. They found a minor leak (someone in the alley actually ran into the meter!), had it fixed up in no time flat. No charge. If an ISP could come close to my Utilities experience I'd be overjoyed personally. And it'd be the last time I ever saw an Early Termination Fee, obscene equipment charges for commodity hardware, it'd actually work 99.999% of the time, and (maybe the biggest issue of all with ISPs) I'd actually get the service level I'm paying for.

emcrazyone 12y ago
seemingly good point but I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Providing electrical power, sewage lines, etc.. is not very difficult compared to handling Internet traffic. To make more clear what I mean, I wonder how your electric company would deal with a set of problems like when a torrent shows up on one of your customer's computers? Not to mention that IT support is probably more expensive than having your gas line checked for a leak.

wvenable 12y ago

> You have enumerated a list of the worst services available to today's consumer. All these services probably have a better consumer rating than your Internet provider.

internet_arguer 12y ago

> Governments regularly use all of these utilities as revenue-raising 'businesses', which they consistently strip of any capital that could be used for infrastructure improvements. Is there any evidence of this? I was unable to find anything of value in a cursory web search. I found a couple of counter-examples, such as the Enron (NYSE:ENE) scandal of intentionally causing blackouts and brownouts. > worst services available In many places, e.g. DC area, electricity (PEPCO) takes a long time to be restored and is objectively bad. However, regulated utilities are bound to serve rural and otherwise unprofitable customers. > Roads are often subsidized for truckers How do you get your food, iPhones, and button-up shirts? > Water is subsidized for farmers and golf courses, and this often causes everyone else to suffer droughts. Agreed that it is suboptimal for golf courses and manufacturers (including breweries) to use disproportionate amounts of water. Farmers? Maybe if they're raising livestock or other luxury food products. Causing droughts? How?

eru 12y ago
The comment about subsidized water for farmers applies to eg California. Yes, the water rights for farmers there are a serious mess and cause problems.

rdtsc 12y ago

> You have enumerated a list of the worst services available to today's consumer. Are you being sarcastic or trolling, can't tell. What are the worst services? Water? You need better water? You need competition for water and would like 5 companies to lay water pipes through the neighborhoods? You know strawberry flavored water, some with extra calcium ions, maybe one with beer flavor. > Roads are often subsidized for truckers, which causes everyone else to pay higher gas taxes than they should, and suffer damaged road surfaces Maybe we should tax truckers more. Wait, we do that. The easiest way to do it is to tax diesel fuel at the moment. Not ideal but we something is already in place. > Police departments are poorly regulated, Well go vote against it then. I don't remember having even the ability to vote on how good or crappy I want my Verizon FIOS experience to be.