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We're having multiple conversations here... I think western wealthy vegans don't have particularly strong morals or ethical values and are vegan for other elit

We're having multiple conversations here... I think western wealthy vegans don't have particularly strong morals or ethical values and are vegan for other elitist and classist reasons. I think if they were exposed to the real world they would have a more practical (and Buddhist) outlook on diet. I don't think they particularly care about animal rights either. You can have a moral and ethical existence and still eat eggs and animal fat.

chc 12y ago
You still just seem to be asserting "My morals are right and theirs are wrong." I don't usually like to bring myself into things, but since we're getting into people's thoughts, I'll just be explicit here: I do not believe one can lead a fully moral existence while having animals killed or abused for your convenience. I'm not trying to force this on anyone, but I'm not going to have anyone force it out of me either. You disagree with this belief, and that is your right, but to assume that I secretly know your system of morality is right and mine is wrong seems incredibly pompous to me. I believe what I believe just as strongly as you believe what you do.
- comrade1 12y ago
  Who's talking about killing or abusing animals? Only you are. I'm talking about eating eggs, butter, and for the few cultures that eat it, cheese. Even in the u.s. you can eat animal products where the animals lead healthy lives.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    Female cows only produce milk to feed their young. Thus, cows are constantly bred. Any male calves are sold off for meat (usually veal which in some countries consists of considerably cruel rearing practices -- if not used for veal they're just shot) and the female calves are used to continue the milk herd. And that's just considering the dairy products from good farms.
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  Let's bear in mind that someone is being locked inside a building for a while, just because he once ran a website that became unpopular with the authorities. Debating whether or not he should be fed a vegan diet on the inside is prematurely surrendering the debate that questions whether he should be losing the freedom to control his own diet for that supposed offense. It is not a binary choice between just loss of freedom and loss of freedom plus compromise of one's dietary practices. It seems odd that we would be assigning the same punishment regimes to people so pacifist that they won't even eat plankton as we assign to people who destroy human lives with nary an inkling of remorse. Veganism is something I can understand and respect. The morality of state justice, on the other hand, is far less defensible when you look past its well-groomed public image. Depending on your locale, the prisoners in your nearest prison may be treated with less respect than the animals in your closest slaughterhouse. In that light, making morality-based appeals to the prison kitchen seems almost pointless.
pcthrowaway 12y ago
You seriously believe people are vegan for 'elitist and classist reasons'? Maybe some people are vegan because they think it's cool, but 90% of vegans and vegetarians I've met are vegan for either health, environmental, or moral reasons, the latter of which is related to their views on animal rights.

chc 12y ago

You still just seem to be asserting "My morals are right and theirs are wrong." I don't usually like to bring myself into things, but since we're getting into people's thoughts, I'll just be explicit here: I do not believe one can lead a fully moral existence while having animals killed or abused for your convenience. I'm not trying to force this on anyone, but I'm not going to have anyone force it out of me either. You disagree with this belief, and that is your right, but to assume that I secretly know your system of morality is right and mine is wrong seems incredibly pompous to me. I believe what I believe just as strongly as you believe what you do.

comrade1 12y ago
Who's talking about killing or abusing animals? Only you are. I'm talking about eating eggs, butter, and for the few cultures that eat it, cheese. Even in the u.s. you can eat animal products where the animals lead healthy lives.
- DanBC 12y ago
  Female cows only produce milk to feed their young. Thus, cows are constantly bred. Any male calves are sold off for meat (usually veal which in some countries consists of considerably cruel rearing practices -- if not used for veal they're just shot) and the female calves are used to continue the milk herd. And that's just considering the dairy products from good farms.
logfromblammo 12y ago
Let's bear in mind that someone is being locked inside a building for a while, just because he once ran a website that became unpopular with the authorities. Debating whether or not he should be fed a vegan diet on the inside is prematurely surrendering the debate that questions whether he should be losing the freedom to control his own diet for that supposed offense. It is not a binary choice between just loss of freedom and loss of freedom plus compromise of one's dietary practices. It seems odd that we would be assigning the same punishment regimes to people so pacifist that they won't even eat plankton as we assign to people who destroy human lives with nary an inkling of remorse. Veganism is something I can understand and respect. The morality of state justice, on the other hand, is far less defensible when you look past its well-groomed public image. Depending on your locale, the prisoners in your nearest prison may be treated with less respect than the animals in your closest slaughterhouse. In that light, making morality-based appeals to the prison kitchen seems almost pointless.

pcthrowaway 12y ago

You seriously believe people are vegan for 'elitist and classist reasons'? Maybe some people are vegan because they think it's cool, but 90% of vegans and vegetarians I've met are vegan for either health, environmental, or moral reasons, the latter of which is related to their views on animal rights.