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>There have been fairly long-term experiments on BI, and people who choose not to work do things they enjoy - learning to paint, going to school, etc. How are

by zaccus 12y ago

>There have been fairly long-term experiments on BI, and people who choose not to work do things they enjoy - learning to paint, going to school, etc. How are those things not work? They require focused effort, just the same as any job does. Does something not qualify as "work" just because it is enjoyable?

dllthomas 12y ago
I think something does not qualify as "work", in the sense thedufer was using it, if you don't stand an appreciable chance of being paid for it. I think that's an important sense, but I agree that we need to be careful that this does not cause us to overlook or undervalue productive efforts where that isn't the case.
thedufer 12y ago
I was using some implicit assumptions made by crdoconnor (without which the `"need to work" -> PWA > BI` implication falls apart). The first, that "work" implies something you can reasonably be paid for. And the second, that there's some dependence on others in order to do the work. Alternatively, you can re-word my argument if you'd like - the human need to work doesn't imply that BI is insufficient because people can find meaningful work on their own. I thought the first argument was clearer, but your comment forced me to think harder about the second - and in retrospect, I think it makes more sense put that way.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >Alternatively, you can re-word my argument if you'd like - the human need to work doesn't imply that BI is insufficient because people can find meaningful work on their own. Yep, the question is whether as a society you'd rather have them building bridges and schools or forming bands and writing (mostly pretty bad) poetry. I can see arguments for both but honestly I think the first is an easier sell for the vast majority of citizens. If you feel like your inflation is high enough and you don't really want more people out there writing poetry, basic income doesn't seem like such a great deal.

by zaccus 12y ago

dllthomas 12y ago

I think something does not qualify as "work", in the sense thedufer was using it, if you don't stand an appreciable chance of being paid for it. I think that's an important sense, but I agree that we need to be careful that this does not cause us to overlook or undervalue productive efforts where that isn't the case.

thedufer 12y ago

I was using some implicit assumptions made by crdoconnor (without which the `"need to work" -> PWA > BI` implication falls apart). The first, that "work" implies something you can reasonably be paid for. And the second, that there's some dependence on others in order to do the work. Alternatively, you can re-word my argument if you'd like - the human need to work doesn't imply that BI is insufficient because people can find meaningful work on their own. I thought the first argument was clearer, but your comment forced me to think harder about the second - and in retrospect, I think it makes more sense put that way.

crdoconnor 12y ago
>Alternatively, you can re-word my argument if you'd like - the human need to work doesn't imply that BI is insufficient because people can find meaningful work on their own. Yep, the question is whether as a society you'd rather have them building bridges and schools or forming bands and writing (mostly pretty bad) poetry. I can see arguments for both but honestly I think the first is an easier sell for the vast majority of citizens. If you feel like your inflation is high enough and you don't really want more people out there writing poetry, basic income doesn't seem like such a great deal.