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Isn't it also the responsibility of the individual to gain skills that are valuable? I don't think what you describe is true for Software Developers in Sillicon

Isn't it also the responsibility of the individual to gain skills that are valuable? I don't think what you describe is true for Software Developers in Sillicon Valley, for example. How much vacation do Software Developers in the Valley usually get?

kefka 12y ago
The Silicon Valley is not indicative of jobs in the US. What some developer there gets has little/no bearing on what happens elsewhere. You also did not argue the core assertion that the employer-employee contract is heavily skewed to the employer. That has been true for the last 30 years. Productivity has made great inroads, yet pay and benefits have dropped significantly. So yes, this is a government issue. The employers have a sweet deal and the plebes have no power. But alas, Republicans in the Senate will make sure that much needed reforms won't happen.
- facepalm 12y ago
  If employers have such a sweet deal, just become an employer? Why is there an entitlement for employment?
  - normloman 12y ago
    Because most new businesses fail. So the people best suited to start ones are people with a safety net: a lot of cash saved up, or a well off family to support them. In short, the people who can't afford to lose their jobs also cannot afford to fail in business.
    - facepalm 12y ago
      Then perhaps it would make more sense to change that than to change rules about vacations. Isn't it the job of the banking system to enable people to start businesses?
      - normloman 12y ago
        Have you tried getting a loan from the bank to start a business? Fat chance. And if your business fails, you still gotta pay the bank back its loan (which doesn't solve the problem in the original post. The underprivileged still can't afford to fail).
- facepalm 12y ago
  Still, how much vacation time do Sillicon Valley developers get? If they also only get two weeks, it would invalidate the theory that people get no vacation because they are so much under pressure to not lose their jobs.
mgkimsal 12y ago
not everyone can be a software developer, and frankly we can't have a society of people who only have specialist skills. There will always be a need for people with minimal skills to do low-skill jobs. They're doing work that has to get done too.
- draugadrotten 12y ago
  > frankly we can't have a society of people who only have specialist skills. Out of curiosity, why not? And frankly, isn't it already the case? Most people are unable to produce enough for their own survival today. They can't grow crops, build a home, even make their own bread. Instead they are specialists at project management, javascript or flipping burgers. I'm not arguing that this is bad or wrong, I am only saying your statement that a society of people with specialist skills would not be possible.
  - VLM 12y ago
    For my first 10 yrs out of school there was no job market for network operators specializing in BGP. Then I did that for a bit less than a decade. Then due to consolidation and mergers there's no work in that field anymore (other than the stereotypical "move to SV/NYC"). Another direction to go is my grandma did meaningless low skill BS work in an office shuffling papers as a clerk because she specialized in knitting and had amazing knitting skills, but didn't feel like being sentenced to life in a textile sweatshop in Vietnam, or where-ever clothes were being made at that time (Vietnam now, but in the 70s? Surely not the USA by then?). For my own example there's no way I'd tolerate 140 hour work weeks as a medical doctor although I'd probably have made a heck of a doctor, and I'm not living in poverty so forget academics/sciences, and I'm not living urban and working in an open plan office so forget SV. As a hobby I enjoy woodworking but as a profession the pay is bad and the working conditions are awful, also its not very deep so I'd get bored with it long before I retire, so ... no. So you have chronological problems or retraining problems, and also people that are a skills match but hate the working environment. Maybe in a communist society the central committee could force my grandma to be a textile worker or force me to be a medical doctor or work at a startup, but there would be a lot of force involved.
  - 12y ago

kefka 12y ago

The Silicon Valley is not indicative of jobs in the US. What some developer there gets has little/no bearing on what happens elsewhere. You also did not argue the core assertion that the employer-employee contract is heavily skewed to the employer. That has been true for the last 30 years. Productivity has made great inroads, yet pay and benefits have dropped significantly. So yes, this is a government issue. The employers have a sweet deal and the plebes have no power. But alas, Republicans in the Senate will make sure that much needed reforms won't happen.

facepalm 12y ago
If employers have such a sweet deal, just become an employer? Why is there an entitlement for employment?
- normloman 12y ago
  Because most new businesses fail. So the people best suited to start ones are people with a safety net: a lot of cash saved up, or a well off family to support them. In short, the people who can't afford to lose their jobs also cannot afford to fail in business.
  - facepalm 12y ago
    Then perhaps it would make more sense to change that than to change rules about vacations. Isn't it the job of the banking system to enable people to start businesses?
    - normloman 12y ago
      Have you tried getting a loan from the bank to start a business? Fat chance. And if your business fails, you still gotta pay the bank back its loan (which doesn't solve the problem in the original post. The underprivileged still can't afford to fail).
facepalm 12y ago
Still, how much vacation time do Sillicon Valley developers get? If they also only get two weeks, it would invalidate the theory that people get no vacation because they are so much under pressure to not lose their jobs.

mgkimsal 12y ago

not everyone can be a software developer, and frankly we can't have a society of people who only have specialist skills. There will always be a need for people with minimal skills to do low-skill jobs. They're doing work that has to get done too.

draugadrotten 12y ago
> frankly we can't have a society of people who only have specialist skills. Out of curiosity, why not? And frankly, isn't it already the case? Most people are unable to produce enough for their own survival today. They can't grow crops, build a home, even make their own bread. Instead they are specialists at project management, javascript or flipping burgers. I'm not arguing that this is bad or wrong, I am only saying your statement that a society of people with specialist skills would not be possible.
- VLM 12y ago
  For my first 10 yrs out of school there was no job market for network operators specializing in BGP. Then I did that for a bit less than a decade. Then due to consolidation and mergers there's no work in that field anymore (other than the stereotypical "move to SV/NYC"). Another direction to go is my grandma did meaningless low skill BS work in an office shuffling papers as a clerk because she specialized in knitting and had amazing knitting skills, but didn't feel like being sentenced to life in a textile sweatshop in Vietnam, or where-ever clothes were being made at that time (Vietnam now, but in the 70s? Surely not the USA by then?). For my own example there's no way I'd tolerate 140 hour work weeks as a medical doctor although I'd probably have made a heck of a doctor, and I'm not living in poverty so forget academics/sciences, and I'm not living urban and working in an open plan office so forget SV. As a hobby I enjoy woodworking but as a profession the pay is bad and the working conditions are awful, also its not very deep so I'd get bored with it long before I retire, so ... no. So you have chronological problems or retraining problems, and also people that are a skills match but hate the working environment. Maybe in a communist society the central committee could force my grandma to be a textile worker or force me to be a medical doctor or work at a startup, but there would be a lot of force involved.
- 12y ago