4 ms·

> But what exactly do you want the other 99% of us who just happen to have been born into the majority to do? Make an effort to include every member of your te

> But what exactly do you want the other 99% of us who just happen to have been born into the majority to do? Make an effort to include every member of your team in your activities. It's Burkeian "omission of good" rather than "commission of evil". Let's assume that you're perfectly non-exclusionary. Fine. What are you doing to be inclusionary? You know what stuck out to me? This line: > I remember asking if we could do other outings that didn’t include beer and getting voted down. I know that feel, and I'm neither black nor female.

x0x0 12y ago
Are these work sponsored outings or small non-work sponsored groups of people hanging out? Work-sponsored should attempt to round-robin enough to be maximally inclusive. Non-work sponsored gatherings are what they are -- I used to do Thursday night drinks at a bar near with coworkers; anyone was welcome but we weren't going to go get bubble tea instead just because someone didn't drink.
- saraid216 12y ago
  Right. That's how it works. You kick some people to the curb because their preferences are just not important enough to you. Which is more important to you? Making a coworker feel included in your social gathering or drinking the right drink because it was Thursday? Or more succinctly: is your tradition more important, or is your coworker more important? Yes, your coworker should also try to fit in and properly conform to the standards your clique sets, and if it's so impossible for you to hang out together because there's absolutely no activity you have in common, then I wouldn't be surprised if they left the company. You could have gone and gotten bubble tea on Tuesday instead, for instance.
  - crazypyro 12y ago
    Oh, that's so ridiculous. It's not tradition versus inclusion of a coworker. They are completely different environments. Some people really enjoy getting that alcohol buzz after a stressful day at work. Tradition would be like only going to a specific bar that one coworker can't go to or something. You aren't comparing apples to oranges. You are expecting people to change their personal habits because another coworker may not approve of them. That is a dangerous slope to begin down.... Its outside of work. Your own convictions and interests should dictate what you do outside of work. There are more differences between drinking beer at a bar and drinking non alcoholic drinks at a starbucks. People are going to enjoy them separately and unfortunately, for many people, the activities are not interchangeable. I personally don't drink, but I would never suggest to co-workers that they change their outside of work habits because I don't want to go to a bar. It's clearly different if its a work sponsored event.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Even a work-sponsored event can't please everybody. And face it, Most people like to go to a bar. So that's a reasonable choice when planning a work outing. I don't like bars; its loud and crowded and there's absolutely nothing I want to do there. But can't please everybody.
    - shockedAlittle 12y ago
      > "You are expecting people to change their personal habits because another coworker may not approve of them." I couldn't agree with you more here. I have been labeled MANY times as in the "after hours drinking group" by people that "don't drink" and I really not sure why I would care. I don't talk about how people are in the "World of Warcraft group" and since I don't play world of warcraft you should come to the bar! ;) But really, those wow'ers should. It's fun.
    - saraid216 12y ago
      > You are expecting people to change their personal habits because another coworker may not approve of them. I like that you put the word "approve" into my mouth. It's an excellent straw man technique and pretty underhanded. Well done. Full marks for rhetorical technique. > I personally don't drink, but I would never suggest to co-workers that they change their outside of work habits because I don't want to go to a bar. And yet, that's not what's happening. The situation at hand is that there exists a group of people who like to do Activity A. Now a new person, Person P, joins the group who does not like doing Activity A. Now, Person P has a choice. They can either leave the group or they can force themselves to do Activity A. > It's clearly different if its a work sponsored event. The thing that you're all missing is that the fact that it's in a workplace is completely irrelevant. Let's assume Activity A is "going to a fellowship meeting on Friday nights". Would an atheist feel included if everyone simply said, "Oh, you don't want to? Guess we're leaving you behind, then." Or worse, if they said, "Oh, you don't want to? But you'll really like it! We demand you come along and do something you won't enjoy!" "Can't we just go and play board games or something?" "No, fellowship is far more important! That's what we do on Friday nights."
      - x0x0 12y ago
  - x0x0 12y ago
    Exactly -- their preferences aren't important to me. It's not my job to be your social life. I'm busy -- I have a more than full time job, hobbies, an SO, friends, and an awesome dog. I've got 2-3 nights per month to hang out with work people, and I use them doing something I enjoy. See how all those statements were about me? That's because this is about my free time. And you, and all my coworkers for that matter, have no claim on it.
    - saraid216 12y ago
      > I've got 2-3 nights per month to hang out with work people, and I use them doing something I enjoy. That's super-great for you, but what if work people don't want to do something that you enjoy? Lemme guess: you won't hang out with them, right? Because that'd be a waste of your time. Fun fact: that's the definition of you are not being included. But you didn't want to be invited to their uncool party anyways, right? > And you, and all my coworkers for that matter, have no claim on it. Why do you even bother hanging out with your coworkers at all? Like, what's in it for you? Are they just extra bodies filling in the space for doing something you enjoy?
      - x0x0 12y ago
        That's super-great for you, but what if work people don't want to do something that you enjoy? Lemme guess: you won't hang out with them, right? Because that'd be a waste of your time. Yes, exactly! I hang out with them when we do stuff together I enjoy; when they don't I decline. eg I find baseball boring, so when invited I say thanks but no thanks. It's like being an adult with a life. This is clearly upsetting to you for some strange reason.

x0x0 12y ago

Are these work sponsored outings or small non-work sponsored groups of people hanging out? Work-sponsored should attempt to round-robin enough to be maximally inclusive. Non-work sponsored gatherings are what they are -- I used to do Thursday night drinks at a bar near with coworkers; anyone was welcome but we weren't going to go get bubble tea instead just because someone didn't drink.

saraid216 12y ago
Right. That's how it works. You kick some people to the curb because their preferences are just not important enough to you. Which is more important to you? Making a coworker feel included in your social gathering or drinking the right drink because it was Thursday? Or more succinctly: is your tradition more important, or is your coworker more important? Yes, your coworker should also try to fit in and properly conform to the standards your clique sets, and if it's so impossible for you to hang out together because there's absolutely no activity you have in common, then I wouldn't be surprised if they left the company. You could have gone and gotten bubble tea on Tuesday instead, for instance.
- crazypyro 12y ago
  Oh, that's so ridiculous. It's not tradition versus inclusion of a coworker. They are completely different environments. Some people really enjoy getting that alcohol buzz after a stressful day at work. Tradition would be like only going to a specific bar that one coworker can't go to or something. You aren't comparing apples to oranges. You are expecting people to change their personal habits because another coworker may not approve of them. That is a dangerous slope to begin down.... Its outside of work. Your own convictions and interests should dictate what you do outside of work. There are more differences between drinking beer at a bar and drinking non alcoholic drinks at a starbucks. People are going to enjoy them separately and unfortunately, for many people, the activities are not interchangeable. I personally don't drink, but I would never suggest to co-workers that they change their outside of work habits because I don't want to go to a bar. It's clearly different if its a work sponsored event.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Even a work-sponsored event can't please everybody. And face it, Most people like to go to a bar. So that's a reasonable choice when planning a work outing. I don't like bars; its loud and crowded and there's absolutely nothing I want to do there. But can't please everybody.
  - shockedAlittle 12y ago
    > "You are expecting people to change their personal habits because another coworker may not approve of them." I couldn't agree with you more here. I have been labeled MANY times as in the "after hours drinking group" by people that "don't drink" and I really not sure why I would care. I don't talk about how people are in the "World of Warcraft group" and since I don't play world of warcraft you should come to the bar! ;) But really, those wow'ers should. It's fun.
  - saraid216 12y ago
    > You are expecting people to change their personal habits because another coworker may not approve of them. I like that you put the word "approve" into my mouth. It's an excellent straw man technique and pretty underhanded. Well done. Full marks for rhetorical technique. > I personally don't drink, but I would never suggest to co-workers that they change their outside of work habits because I don't want to go to a bar. And yet, that's not what's happening. The situation at hand is that there exists a group of people who like to do Activity A. Now a new person, Person P, joins the group who does not like doing Activity A. Now, Person P has a choice. They can either leave the group or they can force themselves to do Activity A. > It's clearly different if its a work sponsored event. The thing that you're all missing is that the fact that it's in a workplace is completely irrelevant. Let's assume Activity A is "going to a fellowship meeting on Friday nights". Would an atheist feel included if everyone simply said, "Oh, you don't want to? Guess we're leaving you behind, then." Or worse, if they said, "Oh, you don't want to? But you'll really like it! We demand you come along and do something you won't enjoy!" "Can't we just go and play board games or something?" "No, fellowship is far more important! That's what we do on Friday nights."
    - x0x0 12y ago
- x0x0 12y ago
  Exactly -- their preferences aren't important to me. It's not my job to be your social life. I'm busy -- I have a more than full time job, hobbies, an SO, friends, and an awesome dog. I've got 2-3 nights per month to hang out with work people, and I use them doing something I enjoy. See how all those statements were about me? That's because this is about my free time. And you, and all my coworkers for that matter, have no claim on it.
  - saraid216 12y ago
    > I've got 2-3 nights per month to hang out with work people, and I use them doing something I enjoy. That's super-great for you, but what if work people don't want to do something that you enjoy? Lemme guess: you won't hang out with them, right? Because that'd be a waste of your time. Fun fact: that's the definition of you are not being included. But you didn't want to be invited to their uncool party anyways, right? > And you, and all my coworkers for that matter, have no claim on it. Why do you even bother hanging out with your coworkers at all? Like, what's in it for you? Are they just extra bodies filling in the space for doing something you enjoy?
    - x0x0 12y ago
      That's super-great for you, but what if work people don't want to do something that you enjoy? Lemme guess: you won't hang out with them, right? Because that'd be a waste of your time. Yes, exactly! I hang out with them when we do stuff together I enjoy; when they don't I decline. eg I find baseball boring, so when invited I say thanks but no thanks. It's like being an adult with a life. This is clearly upsetting to you for some strange reason.