4 ms·

This rests on the assumption that hiring and interviewing is meritocratic. It's not, it's a hugely flawed system. And in the valley there is a HUGE preference t

This rests on the assumption that hiring and interviewing is meritocratic. It's not, it's a hugely flawed system. And in the valley there is a HUGE preference towards "fit". So much so that some companies even prioritize "fit" as a primary hiring criterion. That is a major part of the problem. The solution isn't to start prioritizing "diversity" when hiring folks, the solution is to avoid hiring just within your narrow comfort zone of people who are like you. And that includes people with different life experiences, educational backgrounds, etc. as well as people with different cultural backgrounds and ethnicities. Mostly that's just a matter of becoming a better, less biased, more objective interviewer. Another factor is acceptance and prejudice. Keep your own prejudices in check and police other folks. When you see or hear of instances of people being insensitive or of excluding someone based on their cultural or other differences, act on it, and help fix it. If you want women to be part of your team, then maybe don't consider having a meeting at a strip club. You'd think that sort of thing is a no brainer, but especially in the SV world full of man children who have discovered there are no rules other than the ones they impose on themselves, it can be a bit of a problem.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
Suppose we adopt a more meritocratic system - base hiring decisions mostly on code tests, github accounts, and similar things that are almost entirely based on performance. (I mostly do this already. When I do a 1 hour interview, I have a ladder of 4 standard questions I ask, followed 1 question about a topic on the person's resume that I understand well. Just to see if they really know what they claim to know.) Would you be happy with such a process? Note that most SJWs (at least, the pro-female SJWs, who rarely discuss race) tend to oppose this sort of process on the grounds that it will result in fewer women.
- owenmarshall 12y ago
  > github accounts Hiring by github/open source contributions mean you're selecting for programmers who have ample free time and an interest joining the overwhelmingly young, white, and male open source community. You're going to filter out women, black people, and anyone with a family. You're also going to filter out people who are bound by nasty non-competes, or even people who just don't like to program outside work. It's a tough one: you can clearly see how people navigate communities and get a much more in-depth picture of their development process, but you're also leaving people out that don't fit the mold. > Would you be happy with such a process? Until someone figures out how to do a blinded interview, focusing strictly on applicable skills and being conscious of bias is as good as it'll get.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    No one is filtered by anything other than their own choices. There is nothing preventing a woman from using github - github doesn't even ask about gender or race.
    - owenmarshall 12y ago
      I'd point you to a few well written articles that address this line of thinking pretty well: * http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-and-the-oss-community http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-an... * https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/why-github-is-not-your-cv/ https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/why-github-is-not-your-c... * http://www.garann.com/dev/2012/you-keep-using-that-word/ http://www.garann.com/dev/2012/you-keep-using-that-word/
      - yummyfajitas 12y ago
        Those articles do not address my claim at all. Ashe Dryden merely lists some personal choices of women (cleaning their house more, taking care of children), and some unrelated statistics about women in general. If she did somehow draw a causal link between those activities and not using github (she doesn't), it would imply that women should also be absent from Facebook, Pinterest and Instagram. They aren't. The second link is merely an animated gif of an octopuss. The only point the third article makes is based on the implicit and unproven assumption that merit is uniformly distributed. None of those articles remotely attempt to show that women are prevented from using github.
        owenmarshall 12y ago
        > The second link is merely an animated gif of an octopuss. Now that is funny. Either the blogger changed his URL structure in the time I copy/pasted, or I did a dumb: https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/ https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/ > If she did somehow draw a causal link between those activities and not using github (she doesn't), it would imply that women should also be absent from Facebook, Pinterest and Instagram. They aren't. Wait a minute, are you seriously trying to advance the argument that software development (the purpose of github) is as mentally similar as browsing the web for pictures of cakes (the purpose of Pinterest, as far as I can tell)? Not sure if serious or trolling. E: jcoglan is doing referer: madness, copy/paste the URL or bang refresh.
- codygman 12y ago
  SJW is such a demeaning term that can be applied to anyone who points out something they feel is wrong in the world. So how are you supposed to point out things which are wrong and not "overdo it" like some lame SJW? Or should we just all be "cool" and not point out the fucked up things people do or say throughout our lives? I'm really tired of people gas-lighting others who dare to say "Hey, that's not okay" to the co-worker doing the typical "chinese person speaking engrish" impression or joking about how the woman interviewing for the software engineer position probably isn't very good. What is your stance on this? What turns someone from a decent person into a social justice warrior to you? Am I an SJW in your eyes for this response? Why?

yummyfajitas 12y ago

Suppose we adopt a more meritocratic system - base hiring decisions mostly on code tests, github accounts, and similar things that are almost entirely based on performance. (I mostly do this already. When I do a 1 hour interview, I have a ladder of 4 standard questions I ask, followed 1 question about a topic on the person's resume that I understand well. Just to see if they really know what they claim to know.) Would you be happy with such a process? Note that most SJWs (at least, the pro-female SJWs, who rarely discuss race) tend to oppose this sort of process on the grounds that it will result in fewer women.

owenmarshall 12y ago
> github accounts Hiring by github/open source contributions mean you're selecting for programmers who have ample free time and an interest joining the overwhelmingly young, white, and male open source community. You're going to filter out women, black people, and anyone with a family. You're also going to filter out people who are bound by nasty non-competes, or even people who just don't like to program outside work. It's a tough one: you can clearly see how people navigate communities and get a much more in-depth picture of their development process, but you're also leaving people out that don't fit the mold. > Would you be happy with such a process? Until someone figures out how to do a blinded interview, focusing strictly on applicable skills and being conscious of bias is as good as it'll get.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  No one is filtered by anything other than their own choices. There is nothing preventing a woman from using github - github doesn't even ask about gender or race.
  - owenmarshall 12y ago
    I'd point you to a few well written articles that address this line of thinking pretty well: * http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-and-the-oss-community http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/the-ethics-of-unpaid-labor-an... * https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/why-github-is-not-your-cv/ https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/why-github-is-not-your-c... * http://www.garann.com/dev/2012/you-keep-using-that-word/ http://www.garann.com/dev/2012/you-keep-using-that-word/
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      Those articles do not address my claim at all. Ashe Dryden merely lists some personal choices of women (cleaning their house more, taking care of children), and some unrelated statistics about women in general. If she did somehow draw a causal link between those activities and not using github (she doesn't), it would imply that women should also be absent from Facebook, Pinterest and Instagram. They aren't. The second link is merely an animated gif of an octopuss. The only point the third article makes is based on the implicit and unproven assumption that merit is uniformly distributed. None of those articles remotely attempt to show that women are prevented from using github.
      - owenmarshall 12y ago
        > The second link is merely an animated gif of an octopuss. Now that is funny. Either the blogger changed his URL structure in the time I copy/pasted, or I did a dumb: https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/ https://blog.jcoglan.com/2013/11/15/ > If she did somehow draw a causal link between those activities and not using github (she doesn't), it would imply that women should also be absent from Facebook, Pinterest and Instagram. They aren't. Wait a minute, are you seriously trying to advance the argument that software development (the purpose of github) is as mentally similar as browsing the web for pictures of cakes (the purpose of Pinterest, as far as I can tell)? Not sure if serious or trolling. E: jcoglan is doing referer: madness, copy/paste the URL or bang refresh.
codygman 12y ago
SJW is such a demeaning term that can be applied to anyone who points out something they feel is wrong in the world. So how are you supposed to point out things which are wrong and not "overdo it" like some lame SJW? Or should we just all be "cool" and not point out the fucked up things people do or say throughout our lives? I'm really tired of people gas-lighting others who dare to say "Hey, that's not okay" to the co-worker doing the typical "chinese person speaking engrish" impression or joking about how the woman interviewing for the software engineer position probably isn't very good. What is your stance on this? What turns someone from a decent person into a social justice warrior to you? Am I an SJW in your eyes for this response? Why?