11 ms·

White male engineer here. The isolation described by the author is felt by many, myself included. Obviously the issue is not a problem with my race or sex but o

by cyphunk 12y ago

White male engineer here. The isolation described by the author is felt by many, myself included. Obviously the issue is not a problem with my race or sex but one still closely tied to a lack of diversity in these environments. I don't see how any company can claim to be building any component of our future when its environment can scarcely represent some semblance of actual society. The IT industry has a serious "bro problem". A problem felt perhaps most vividly by the minority groups in this industry but also felt, though in a manner that may be harder to describe and even harder to justify, by many of the majority group. I doubt anyone here would want to live in a city that is 80% white male, much less have it build our future societies.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
omonra 12y ago
Funny that - 10 out of 10 best cities in the world were built by white males: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertypicturegalleries/9477990/The-worlds-10-best-cities-to-live-in.html?frame=2311071 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertypicturegalleries... Seem to get by ok.
- thisrod 12y ago
  No doubt 1 out of 1 of the world's best newspapers, as ranked by the Telegraph, are written by white males too.
- cyphunk 12y ago
  that we (in the west) live in a white mans world has until now been a given. this however should not close to the door for consideration of possible negative effects that the boys club patriarchy creates and potential benefits that might be found in breaking it apart.
  - omonra 12y ago
    Sure. But we clearly have different societies to compare - ones created/run by white and non-white men (no matriarchies unfortunately). And when I take a look around the world - I do have to give credit to those dead white men. Western Europe, AUS/NZ & US/Canada are really the nicest places I've seen - ie not just comparing beauty of nature but what people have done with the land and its resources.
    - sarciszewski 12y ago
      What about the Native American societies, which tracked heritage matrilineally? If we looked hard enough we ought to find some matriarchies somewhere.
      - barry-cotter 12y ago
        There aren't any. Anthropologists have been all over this. There are degrees of egalitarianism and obviously there are unambiguous patriarchies. No one's ever found a matriarchy, or evidence of one existing.
        sarciszewski 12y ago
        Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.
    - lifeisstillgood 12y ago
      Oh do me a fucking favour. Non-white men have built cities and civilisations for 10,000 years, hewn staggering beauty from jungle, from plains, from desert and mountains, in Giza, Mexico, India, China and elsewhere. 250 years ago a bunch of Europeans stumbled on cheap coal and condensing boilers and crop rotation - those gifts gave to the whole world and it's future - but not because our ancestors were white, just because they were in the right place at the right time. I am really hoping you were trolling for the lolz.
      - peterfirefly 12y ago
        Weren't they white in Giza?
- peteretep 12y ago
  Maybe you would enjoy reading: http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393317552 http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/03...
  - omonra 12y ago
    I have - it was the required book to read for the entire freshman class of my university (across all majors). Even if you accept its findings (they are debated) - it merely answers the question of why Europeans were victorious. It doesn't question whether the society built by white men is good - but merely answers why :)
- InclinedPlane 12y ago
  If you think Vancouver, BC is a "white" city, you are oh so sorely mistaken.
sliverstorm 12y ago
What is interesting to me is the author describes feeling most at home when surrounded not by diversity, but by those like her. That's the same reason these companies wind up so homogenous in the first place. I can't help but wonder if, assuming this is what makes everybody most comfortable (being surrounded by people like them, rather than being surrounded by diversity), the quest for diversity might simply result in cultural balkanization within companies as cultural/racial/gender/social groups coalesce (thanks to that preference) That very thing already happens at my employer, with regards to age. The company has a diverse selection of age, and the result is fairly strong social siloing by age.
- cyphunk 12y ago
  I understand your point. But I don't think the author was arguing just for a different form of homeogeny. But regardless, even if that were the case one has to put themselves in the authors shoes. [Statement A] Having lived in environments where I was the minority I then find it refreshing to be in the majority at times. When I then discuss the issues I find with the homeogenic environment I find myself in you could read Statement A as being an indication I want a different form of homeogeny or as a valid critique of the environment I'm discussing. Regardless of the authors own desires the situation of the demographic bias that is clearly indisputable in the IT industry warrants her statements be considered on the grounds of the words without subjecting hidden intent. And those words are criticism of this IT homeogeny. I also agree that your question of cultural balkanisation is interesting. But I don't think the IT industry in particular ever has to worry about this except when it comes to the balkanisation it already creates by dejecting minorities of race and sex, but also in dejecting members of the majority that simply find this environment offers too little culturally to bother with.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    It is not a thought about hidden intent, but a thought about the end-game of diversity. Perhaps there is such a thing as too much diversity, for example, where there are no groups in the company with relative homogeneity and everyone feels isolated? Perhaps the value of diversity is not diversity itself, but rather having a selection of possible groups into which a new hire might chose to integrate? The current narrative around diversity does not seem to quite align to her story, which is why I am intrigued. It raises interesting questions. If her story is a story of a woman leaving one culture of homogeneity that excluded her to another culture of homogeneity that included her, that says different things about the value of diversity than moving from a culture of homogeneity to a culture of diversity.
snoman 12y ago
White male engineer here as well, that also identifies with what the OP is saying. When a number of people from all differentiating groups all identify in the same, or similar ways, I don't see how people can continue to call it an issue of diversity. It appears to me that some people are just not good at making friends (myself included), and it doesn't surprise me that the IT industry has an abundance of people with that difficulty.
stcredzero 12y ago
Obviously the issue is not a problem with my race or sex but one still closely tied to a lack of diversity in these environments. I don't think that the problem is so much of a lack of diversity, as it is a lack of awareness of group dynamics. It's far too simpleminded to just wish that diversity will solve our social problems. It could help, but it could just as well create a situation that makes things worse. http://lesswrong.com/lw/lt/the_robbers_cave_experiment/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/lt/the_robbers_cave_experiment/ The same unconscious behaviors that make power so seductive and corrupting are the same unconscious processes that causes us to "outgroup" people who are different. Resisting such group psychology is at about the same level of difficulty as overcoming our cravings for sugar. I could liken our current culture's level of (in)competence with group psychology with the culture's general level of cluelessness when first confronted with distilled alcohols or when dealing with trespassing laws after the advent of airplanes. After 1000's of years where levels of individual power and affluence were constrained by geography and group membership, we have been thrown with exponentially increasing velocity into an era where personal mobility and communications power are creating opportunities for people of different groups to interact. We've gone from mostly stratified to our current highly dynamic state of society in just a few hundred years. Yet we're still largely using "mental furnishings" from our jingoistic and stratified past -- to the point where a lot of dialogue concerning issues of ethnicity, culture, gender, and minority status consists of hostility, distrust, and more typical "mindless jingoism" produced by those same group psychologies. What's more, I'm not entirely sure that the culture as a whole is capable of dealing with the kind of meta-level thinking it would take to become competently aware of our own group psychology.
AnimalMuppet 12y ago
This may reflect something I experienced. I grew up in Salt Lake City. I'm not Mormon. In high school, I felt very isolated. I felt like all the social activities centered on the Mormon church, and that I was an outsider because of that. Twenty or thirty years later, I started to realize: Maybe it was just because I was a nerd. I was small, short, socially awkward, geeky - the usual. It didn't take people rejecting me for me to feel like an outcast. But the article said there were also racist and sexist jokes. That's an additional source of feeling isolated that the white males (me included) don't have to put up with - and which nobody should have to put up with, ever.
- lotharbot 12y ago
  it probably wasn't just because you were a nerd. Utah is incredibly isolating to many non-Mormons.
- rimantas 12y ago
  Please, tell, what jokes are acceptable? That's a very serious question. You cannot joke about gender or race, ok, fair enough. The I guess you cannot joke about nationality as well. Same goes for physical traits or occupation. Same goes for the marital status. Well I guess better not to joke about the humans at all. What's left? Animals? Better not, PETA may be all over you. Let's play it safely and joke about rocks. And before you are outraged how dare I compare such serious problems as racism and sexism with some trivialities ask yourself: isn't it racist or sexist not to compare them? You say black person has more right to be offended by the joke about black people than some poor white bachelor by the joke about bachelors? Sadly it seems that the concept of joke is being lost. You can hardly convince anyone that it is possible to tell all kinds of not PC jokes without being racist, sexist, homophobic. Heck the joke itself may be the joke ridiculing racism, sexism, etc. Alas, the finer points will be lost for sure. We are losing personal responsibility and personal ethics. It's being replaced by pattern recognition and very crude pattern recognition, mostly with stupid regexp matching single words and not being able to see the context at all. _if (match_found) then self.offended = true_
  - lotharbot 12y ago
rimantas 12y ago
> I don't see how any company can claim to be building any > component of our future when its environment can scarcely > represent some semblance of actual society. And I don't see how that's relevant at all. It's the same as saying that "I don't see how agriculture can feed our society when farmers can scarcely represent some semblance of actual society". As long as you are actively seeking diversity you won't have diversity. The true diversity comes when it no longer matters.

by cyphunk 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

omonra 12y ago

Funny that - 10 out of 10 best cities in the world were built by white males: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertypicturegalleries/9477990/The-worlds-10-best-cities-to-live-in.html?frame=2311071 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertypicturegalleries... Seem to get by ok.

thisrod 12y ago
No doubt 1 out of 1 of the world's best newspapers, as ranked by the Telegraph, are written by white males too.
cyphunk 12y ago
that we (in the west) live in a white mans world has until now been a given. this however should not close to the door for consideration of possible negative effects that the boys club patriarchy creates and potential benefits that might be found in breaking it apart.
- omonra 12y ago
  Sure. But we clearly have different societies to compare - ones created/run by white and non-white men (no matriarchies unfortunately). And when I take a look around the world - I do have to give credit to those dead white men. Western Europe, AUS/NZ & US/Canada are really the nicest places I've seen - ie not just comparing beauty of nature but what people have done with the land and its resources.
  - sarciszewski 12y ago
    What about the Native American societies, which tracked heritage matrilineally? If we looked hard enough we ought to find some matriarchies somewhere.
    - barry-cotter 12y ago
      There aren't any. Anthropologists have been all over this. There are degrees of egalitarianism and obviously there are unambiguous patriarchies. No one's ever found a matriarchy, or evidence of one existing.
      - sarciszewski 12y ago
        Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.
  - lifeisstillgood 12y ago
    Oh do me a fucking favour. Non-white men have built cities and civilisations for 10,000 years, hewn staggering beauty from jungle, from plains, from desert and mountains, in Giza, Mexico, India, China and elsewhere. 250 years ago a bunch of Europeans stumbled on cheap coal and condensing boilers and crop rotation - those gifts gave to the whole world and it's future - but not because our ancestors were white, just because they were in the right place at the right time. I am really hoping you were trolling for the lolz.
    - peterfirefly 12y ago
      Weren't they white in Giza?
peteretep 12y ago
Maybe you would enjoy reading: http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393317552 http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/03...
- omonra 12y ago
  I have - it was the required book to read for the entire freshman class of my university (across all majors). Even if you accept its findings (they are debated) - it merely answers the question of why Europeans were victorious. It doesn't question whether the society built by white men is good - but merely answers why :)
InclinedPlane 12y ago
If you think Vancouver, BC is a "white" city, you are oh so sorely mistaken.

sliverstorm 12y ago

What is interesting to me is the author describes feeling most at home when surrounded not by diversity, but by those like her. That's the same reason these companies wind up so homogenous in the first place. I can't help but wonder if, assuming this is what makes everybody most comfortable (being surrounded by people like them, rather than being surrounded by diversity), the quest for diversity might simply result in cultural balkanization within companies as cultural/racial/gender/social groups coalesce (thanks to that preference) That very thing already happens at my employer, with regards to age. The company has a diverse selection of age, and the result is fairly strong social siloing by age.

cyphunk 12y ago
I understand your point. But I don't think the author was arguing just for a different form of homeogeny. But regardless, even if that were the case one has to put themselves in the authors shoes. [Statement A] Having lived in environments where I was the minority I then find it refreshing to be in the majority at times. When I then discuss the issues I find with the homeogenic environment I find myself in you could read Statement A as being an indication I want a different form of homeogeny or as a valid critique of the environment I'm discussing. Regardless of the authors own desires the situation of the demographic bias that is clearly indisputable in the IT industry warrants her statements be considered on the grounds of the words without subjecting hidden intent. And those words are criticism of this IT homeogeny. I also agree that your question of cultural balkanisation is interesting. But I don't think the IT industry in particular ever has to worry about this except when it comes to the balkanisation it already creates by dejecting minorities of race and sex, but also in dejecting members of the majority that simply find this environment offers too little culturally to bother with.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  It is not a thought about hidden intent, but a thought about the end-game of diversity. Perhaps there is such a thing as too much diversity, for example, where there are no groups in the company with relative homogeneity and everyone feels isolated? Perhaps the value of diversity is not diversity itself, but rather having a selection of possible groups into which a new hire might chose to integrate? The current narrative around diversity does not seem to quite align to her story, which is why I am intrigued. It raises interesting questions. If her story is a story of a woman leaving one culture of homogeneity that excluded her to another culture of homogeneity that included her, that says different things about the value of diversity than moving from a culture of homogeneity to a culture of diversity.

snoman 12y ago

White male engineer here as well, that also identifies with what the OP is saying. When a number of people from all differentiating groups all identify in the same, or similar ways, I don't see how people can continue to call it an issue of diversity. It appears to me that some people are just not good at making friends (myself included), and it doesn't surprise me that the IT industry has an abundance of people with that difficulty.

stcredzero 12y ago

Obviously the issue is not a problem with my race or sex but one still closely tied to a lack of diversity in these environments. I don't think that the problem is so much of a lack of diversity, as it is a lack of awareness of group dynamics. It's far too simpleminded to just wish that diversity will solve our social problems. It could help, but it could just as well create a situation that makes things worse. http://lesswrong.com/lw/lt/the_robbers_cave_experiment/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/lt/the_robbers_cave_experiment/ The same unconscious behaviors that make power so seductive and corrupting are the same unconscious processes that causes us to "outgroup" people who are different. Resisting such group psychology is at about the same level of difficulty as overcoming our cravings for sugar. I could liken our current culture's level of (in)competence with group psychology with the culture's general level of cluelessness when first confronted with distilled alcohols or when dealing with trespassing laws after the advent of airplanes. After 1000's of years where levels of individual power and affluence were constrained by geography and group membership, we have been thrown with exponentially increasing velocity into an era where personal mobility and communications power are creating opportunities for people of different groups to interact. We've gone from mostly stratified to our current highly dynamic state of society in just a few hundred years. Yet we're still largely using "mental furnishings" from our jingoistic and stratified past -- to the point where a lot of dialogue concerning issues of ethnicity, culture, gender, and minority status consists of hostility, distrust, and more typical "mindless jingoism" produced by those same group psychologies. What's more, I'm not entirely sure that the culture as a whole is capable of dealing with the kind of meta-level thinking it would take to become competently aware of our own group psychology.

AnimalMuppet 12y ago

This may reflect something I experienced. I grew up in Salt Lake City. I'm not Mormon. In high school, I felt very isolated. I felt like all the social activities centered on the Mormon church, and that I was an outsider because of that. Twenty or thirty years later, I started to realize: Maybe it was just because I was a nerd. I was small, short, socially awkward, geeky - the usual. It didn't take people rejecting me for me to feel like an outcast. But the article said there were also racist and sexist jokes. That's an additional source of feeling isolated that the white males (me included) don't have to put up with - and which nobody should have to put up with, ever.

lotharbot 12y ago
it probably wasn't just because you were a nerd. Utah is incredibly isolating to many non-Mormons.
rimantas 12y ago
Please, tell, what jokes are acceptable? That's a very serious question. You cannot joke about gender or race, ok, fair enough. The I guess you cannot joke about nationality as well. Same goes for physical traits or occupation. Same goes for the marital status. Well I guess better not to joke about the humans at all. What's left? Animals? Better not, PETA may be all over you. Let's play it safely and joke about rocks. And before you are outraged how dare I compare such serious problems as racism and sexism with some trivialities ask yourself: isn't it racist or sexist not to compare them? You say black person has more right to be offended by the joke about black people than some poor white bachelor by the joke about bachelors? Sadly it seems that the concept of joke is being lost. You can hardly convince anyone that it is possible to tell all kinds of not PC jokes without being racist, sexist, homophobic. Heck the joke itself may be the joke ridiculing racism, sexism, etc. Alas, the finer points will be lost for sure. We are losing personal responsibility and personal ethics. It's being replaced by pattern recognition and very crude pattern recognition, mostly with stupid regexp matching single words and not being able to see the context at all. _if (match_found) then self.offended = true_
- lotharbot 12y ago

rimantas 12y ago

> I don't see how any company can claim to be building any > component of our future when its environment can scarcely > represent some semblance of actual society. And I don't see how that's relevant at all. It's the same as saying that "I don't see how agriculture can feed our society when farmers can scarcely represent some semblance of actual society". As long as you are actively seeking diversity you won't have diversity. The true diversity comes when it no longer matters.