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Black engineer here. Fresh out of college, I worked as a developer for one year and couldn't take it. Interesting work, competent teammates, but that constant f

Black engineer here. Fresh out of college, I worked as a developer for one year and couldn't take it. Interesting work, competent teammates, but that constant feeling of unbelongingness and "sticking out like a sore thumb" -- I couldn't take it. So I went back to (grad) school. I kept telling friends and family going back to school was a "good career move". I honestly just wanted to restore my sanity. Thank you so much for writing this, it reflects my experiences perfectly. I can only imagine how additionally difficult it must be for women.

kylewpppd 12y ago
I wonder how much of the "sticking out" is self-imposed. At times, I have felt the same way as you and the author have expressed. At others, I think I am making it up. It's stressful to feel like every move is scrutinized because of something I have no control over. I am tired of the "sticking out" feeling, real or imaginary. So, I started a Meetup group for black engineers. Sometimes, it's really nice to just relax and feel comfortable. No worries about someone attributing my behavior to being black, or judging all black people by something that I've said or done. Right now, I am hoping to rally folks to come to Philadelphia in 2 weeks for a black hackathon. It's a great way to network and teach. Check out http://www.mbkhack.com/ http://www.mbkhack.com/ for more info. If you're in NYC and interested, we will have a pre-meeting before we go. The link is in my profile.
- coffeemug 12y ago
  White engineer (and startup founder) here. Could you explain what it feels like/what you think causes it in a little bit more detail? I care very deeply about diversity and making everyone feel included in our company, but it's hard to do without having a deep understanding of why people who don't feel included feel that way. What exactly do people do? Do you feel they make assumptions about what you're like? Or is it that you feel you can't be yourself because if you act the way you feel is natural and still get your work done, people mistakingly perceive you as unprofessional? For people who are in a position to change work environments and make them more inclusive, what can we do? What changes do you think we could make to accept people from different backgrounds? (I mean actually accept, not just have a friendly slogan that makes everyone self-satisfied, but doesn't actually accomplish anything) EDIT: the OP mentions obviously sexist/racist comments that border on sexual harassment. Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious?
  - erichmond 12y ago
    Coffee, I'd be happy to discuss this in detail with you, but I'd prefer not to post on HN as I'd prefer not to be downvoted into oblivion. I will send you a direct email.
  - megablast 12y ago
    It can be something as simple as being in a team of gamers, and not being a gamer yourself. You are naturally going to stick out, and not have as good a time as if you are in a team of people who like cycling, or have families like you do. Age can be a difference, not obvious as being treated differently, but just having different humuour levels, or doing different things on the weekend can make it harder to bond.
    - _greim_ 12y ago
      I can see not being a gamer or not liking beer making anyone a social misfit, regardless of race. I'm a white non-gamer and I've uncomfortably sat through so many gaming conversations. They just go on and on and on.
    - eldavido 12y ago
      It's true. And for as much flak as "cultural fit" takes in the popular press, everyone's going to be happier if people get along. Look hard at this stuff when you're thinking about joining a company, you'll spend a lot of time there.
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious? Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do. I know it takes some doing to maintain an atmosphere of mutual trust, to the point where people can be direct and honest, and communication even about very complicated issues works the best. I would maintain that a policy of instant firing for pattern-matching "bad behavior" is the very opposite of what you want. (Except in very extreme circumstances.) Instead, when it comes up, how about you gauge how open the different parties are to new information? How about measuring how curious, flexible, and effective they are figuring out where things went wrong and understanding how to avoid the problem in the future? I propose that an atmosphere of openness and mutual trust that can even encompass issues around race and gender would make for a group that's head and shoulders more effective than most.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
dominotw 12y ago
At least you were not an only Indian on the team who had to bear the stigma of a 'job stealing immigrant'. I honestly wonder if people in this day and age care about the color of your skin. Isn't that from like the 60's?
- sopooneo 12y ago
  I sometimes go to new jobs and hear comments so egregious that at first I laugh because I think they are doing a bit and mocking how bad some other people are. Then it turns out to be in earnest. It's staggering. It's like the took the over-the-top videos from diversity training, and even further exaggerated the behavior from the "don't" section. As a white male I've never had to deal with bigotry with teeth against me, but I like to think I have enough empathy to at least understand it could be tough to feel different. And frankly, I would assume that many of us in tech might have had some awkward teenage years that could help with that mental exercise. But actually, when I see blatantly offensive stuff, I bet it is due to a lack of imagination on the part of the offender. They truly can not believe that what they are doing would make someone feel bad, that it would make them feel bad if the situation were reversed.
  - eitally 12y ago
    I have, as a white male. We have a captive IT office in south India and when visiting there you really feel like some sort of warlord. [Almost] everyone looks away, tries to act busy, and you are not included in any of the socializing... socializing which you know exists because the most popular place in the office is in the canteen around the tea & coffee machines. This is not a bitter rant and I have made good friends in that office over the ten years I've been working with them, but to brush with a broad stroke the generalization is accurate. I'm sure it cuts both ways, too, when those folks visit our US offices where there are an ample number of Indians at all levels (my CIO is Indian, along with three of his directs / my peers, for example), but who are homogeneously westernized. They understand the south Indian culture better than anyway, but prejudices are still there.
    - deskamess 12y ago
emotionalcode 12y ago
Woman here. My college had a 4:1 male:female ratio. I got used to it, I suppose, but, I'm only honestly beginning to understand the difficulties I encountered. If an idea cropped up in my head that made me feel as though I had it rough for being female, I squashed it immediately. The last thing I ever would be willing to do was blame something I could not control. I didn't really see the depression I had, as something connected. I hopped from computer engineering, to electrical engineering, to get a bachelors in Art. I worked cross discipline between Art and CS, to publish academically. I got my masters in CS. I was accepted as a PhD student in CS, but at that point, I was so isolated that I essentially collapsed from stress, overvaluing my work, and undervaluing my health. I work as a software developer now, in the interim of 'not really knowing what to do with my life', being that I've seen so many facets of where I can go, what I can do, and once again, haven't got the faintest clue aside from a small amount of intuition to guide me in what to do. That, and an obsession with everything related to technology, and enough technical/logical/mathematical books to build a house with. I don't know so much if it's that my surroundings changed that tempered my feelings, introspections, and feelings of isolation, or the experiences I've been through. I'd say it's easy, but it isn't. I'd say it's hard, but it isn't. I just sort of imagine everyone in life goes through something similar once in a while, even if on the surface, it looks totally different.
- vargas84 12y ago
  I'm a Mexican single father studying CSE in Ohio. I have can honestly say that I have never experienced any substantial form of racism but fatherhood as an undergraduate certainly brings a certain degree of isolation. I'm not complaining - I've been dealt a sweet hand - but it is a fact. I just wanted to thank you for writing this, your last couple of sentences really resonated with me. If more people understood that everyone has something to deal with, the world would be a better place.
Retric 12y ago
I have been the odd man out on some teams and been part of the collective for others. The third option of diverse teams seems more inclusive on the surface. EX: Current team has 2 black females one from the US the other from Africa, 2 Indian females from India, 1 Indian male from India, 2 white males born in the US, 2 Asian males one born in the US another born outside. Team lead is american born Asian. We are managed by a black female, who's boss is a white female, who's boss is a black male. However, in my experience rather than have more people fit in you end up with everyone feeling like they don't fit in for a long period of time. PS: Ok, there is the default 'can speak English clearly' group. But culture goes beyond language.
- wavefunction 12y ago
  Great post but you can use whose instead of who's "who's" is a contraction of "who is" while "whose" shows possession. Not trying to be a language pedant but my parents are both English instructors and I can't help it!
zenciadam 12y ago
A lot of it has to do with two generations of well meaning social engineering in our schools and workplaces to constantly acknowledge and celebrate diversity. But doing this entails never forgetting and never really feeling truly comfortable. Every time there's a team member from some under-represented group, there is a tendency to think of it as living in some kind of "diverse workplace" stock photo instead of just getting stuff done.
- nine_k 12y ago
  This is indeed sad. "Including" different people by constantly paying attention to their differences does not look productive to me. See, e.g. green-eyed developers (a smaller minority in the world than many others) aren't celebrated; nobody cares what the color of your eyes is. If you paid attention to it, you'd get blank stares from colleagues: "what?" When this begins to apply to people of different ethnic origins, we will have achieved equality.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - webXL 12y ago
    I agree completely. I hear "celebrate diversity" all the time, but when you want to get to know someone, you usually try to find things in common. Commonality is just as important.
- rayiner 12y ago
  Social engineering doesn't create the discomfort, it's intrinsic. I grew up in northern Virginia in the early 1990's. The town, which is quite cosmopolitan today, was almost totally white and rather conservative at the time. The "social engineering" and relative liberalism of northern Virginia wouldn't arrive for several years yet. I distinctly remember one day in first or second grade being asked to draw a picture of my family. I didn't color in the faces because I didn't want to use the brown crayon for that when everyone else was using the cream-colored crayon. Nobody told me that brown was bad or anything silly like that--it was just obvious even as a small child that looking different than the people around you was significant.
nether 12y ago
I feel similarly I think as an asian mechanical engineer among a group of whites. On my first day, I was subjected to an excruciating conversation with one of them telling me about how he saw a movie "about asians." Yeah, I watched a tv show about whites too. Portlandia. Ugh I'm not a race. I'm a rock climber, long distance cyclist who likes to cook indian food, and read Tolstoy in a messy room. I drive a pickup truck that get shitty mileage but I can sleep in the back.

kylewpppd 12y ago

I wonder how much of the "sticking out" is self-imposed. At times, I have felt the same way as you and the author have expressed. At others, I think I am making it up. It's stressful to feel like every move is scrutinized because of something I have no control over. I am tired of the "sticking out" feeling, real or imaginary. So, I started a Meetup group for black engineers. Sometimes, it's really nice to just relax and feel comfortable. No worries about someone attributing my behavior to being black, or judging all black people by something that I've said or done. Right now, I am hoping to rally folks to come to Philadelphia in 2 weeks for a black hackathon. It's a great way to network and teach. Check out http://www.mbkhack.com/ http://www.mbkhack.com/ for more info. If you're in NYC and interested, we will have a pre-meeting before we go. The link is in my profile.

coffeemug 12y ago
White engineer (and startup founder) here. Could you explain what it feels like/what you think causes it in a little bit more detail? I care very deeply about diversity and making everyone feel included in our company, but it's hard to do without having a deep understanding of why people who don't feel included feel that way. What exactly do people do? Do you feel they make assumptions about what you're like? Or is it that you feel you can't be yourself because if you act the way you feel is natural and still get your work done, people mistakingly perceive you as unprofessional? For people who are in a position to change work environments and make them more inclusive, what can we do? What changes do you think we could make to accept people from different backgrounds? (I mean actually accept, not just have a friendly slogan that makes everyone self-satisfied, but doesn't actually accomplish anything) EDIT: the OP mentions obviously sexist/racist comments that border on sexual harassment. Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious?
- erichmond 12y ago
  Coffee, I'd be happy to discuss this in detail with you, but I'd prefer not to post on HN as I'd prefer not to be downvoted into oblivion. I will send you a direct email.
- megablast 12y ago
  It can be something as simple as being in a team of gamers, and not being a gamer yourself. You are naturally going to stick out, and not have as good a time as if you are in a team of people who like cycling, or have families like you do. Age can be a difference, not obvious as being treated differently, but just having different humuour levels, or doing different things on the weekend can make it harder to bond.
  - _greim_ 12y ago
    I can see not being a gamer or not liking beer making anyone a social misfit, regardless of race. I'm a white non-gamer and I've uncomfortably sat through so many gaming conversations. They just go on and on and on.
  - eldavido 12y ago
    It's true. And for as much flak as "cultural fit" takes in the popular press, everyone's going to be happier if people get along. Look hard at this stuff when you're thinking about joining a company, you'll spend a lot of time there.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious? Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do. I know it takes some doing to maintain an atmosphere of mutual trust, to the point where people can be direct and honest, and communication even about very complicated issues works the best. I would maintain that a policy of instant firing for pattern-matching "bad behavior" is the very opposite of what you want. (Except in very extreme circumstances.) Instead, when it comes up, how about you gauge how open the different parties are to new information? How about measuring how curious, flexible, and effective they are figuring out where things went wrong and understanding how to avoid the problem in the future? I propose that an atmosphere of openness and mutual trust that can even encompass issues around race and gender would make for a group that's head and shoulders more effective than most.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

dominotw 12y ago

At least you were not an only Indian on the team who had to bear the stigma of a 'job stealing immigrant'. I honestly wonder if people in this day and age care about the color of your skin. Isn't that from like the 60's?

sopooneo 12y ago
I sometimes go to new jobs and hear comments so egregious that at first I laugh because I think they are doing a bit and mocking how bad some other people are. Then it turns out to be in earnest. It's staggering. It's like the took the over-the-top videos from diversity training, and even further exaggerated the behavior from the "don't" section. As a white male I've never had to deal with bigotry with teeth against me, but I like to think I have enough empathy to at least understand it could be tough to feel different. And frankly, I would assume that many of us in tech might have had some awkward teenage years that could help with that mental exercise. But actually, when I see blatantly offensive stuff, I bet it is due to a lack of imagination on the part of the offender. They truly can not believe that what they are doing would make someone feel bad, that it would make them feel bad if the situation were reversed.
- eitally 12y ago
  I have, as a white male. We have a captive IT office in south India and when visiting there you really feel like some sort of warlord. [Almost] everyone looks away, tries to act busy, and you are not included in any of the socializing... socializing which you know exists because the most popular place in the office is in the canteen around the tea & coffee machines. This is not a bitter rant and I have made good friends in that office over the ten years I've been working with them, but to brush with a broad stroke the generalization is accurate. I'm sure it cuts both ways, too, when those folks visit our US offices where there are an ample number of Indians at all levels (my CIO is Indian, along with three of his directs / my peers, for example), but who are homogeneously westernized. They understand the south Indian culture better than anyway, but prejudices are still there.
  - deskamess 12y ago

emotionalcode 12y ago

Woman here. My college had a 4:1 male:female ratio. I got used to it, I suppose, but, I'm only honestly beginning to understand the difficulties I encountered. If an idea cropped up in my head that made me feel as though I had it rough for being female, I squashed it immediately. The last thing I ever would be willing to do was blame something I could not control. I didn't really see the depression I had, as something connected. I hopped from computer engineering, to electrical engineering, to get a bachelors in Art. I worked cross discipline between Art and CS, to publish academically. I got my masters in CS. I was accepted as a PhD student in CS, but at that point, I was so isolated that I essentially collapsed from stress, overvaluing my work, and undervaluing my health. I work as a software developer now, in the interim of 'not really knowing what to do with my life', being that I've seen so many facets of where I can go, what I can do, and once again, haven't got the faintest clue aside from a small amount of intuition to guide me in what to do. That, and an obsession with everything related to technology, and enough technical/logical/mathematical books to build a house with. I don't know so much if it's that my surroundings changed that tempered my feelings, introspections, and feelings of isolation, or the experiences I've been through. I'd say it's easy, but it isn't. I'd say it's hard, but it isn't. I just sort of imagine everyone in life goes through something similar once in a while, even if on the surface, it looks totally different.

vargas84 12y ago
I'm a Mexican single father studying CSE in Ohio. I have can honestly say that I have never experienced any substantial form of racism but fatherhood as an undergraduate certainly brings a certain degree of isolation. I'm not complaining - I've been dealt a sweet hand - but it is a fact. I just wanted to thank you for writing this, your last couple of sentences really resonated with me. If more people understood that everyone has something to deal with, the world would be a better place.

Retric 12y ago

I have been the odd man out on some teams and been part of the collective for others. The third option of diverse teams seems more inclusive on the surface. EX: Current team has 2 black females one from the US the other from Africa, 2 Indian females from India, 1 Indian male from India, 2 white males born in the US, 2 Asian males one born in the US another born outside. Team lead is american born Asian. We are managed by a black female, who's boss is a white female, who's boss is a black male. However, in my experience rather than have more people fit in you end up with everyone feeling like they don't fit in for a long period of time. PS: Ok, there is the default 'can speak English clearly' group. But culture goes beyond language.

wavefunction 12y ago
Great post but you can use whose instead of who's "who's" is a contraction of "who is" while "whose" shows possession. Not trying to be a language pedant but my parents are both English instructors and I can't help it!

zenciadam 12y ago

A lot of it has to do with two generations of well meaning social engineering in our schools and workplaces to constantly acknowledge and celebrate diversity. But doing this entails never forgetting and never really feeling truly comfortable. Every time there's a team member from some under-represented group, there is a tendency to think of it as living in some kind of "diverse workplace" stock photo instead of just getting stuff done.

nine_k 12y ago
This is indeed sad. "Including" different people by constantly paying attention to their differences does not look productive to me. See, e.g. green-eyed developers (a smaller minority in the world than many others) aren't celebrated; nobody cares what the color of your eyes is. If you paid attention to it, you'd get blank stares from colleagues: "what?" When this begins to apply to people of different ethnic origins, we will have achieved equality.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- webXL 12y ago
  I agree completely. I hear "celebrate diversity" all the time, but when you want to get to know someone, you usually try to find things in common. Commonality is just as important.
rayiner 12y ago
Social engineering doesn't create the discomfort, it's intrinsic. I grew up in northern Virginia in the early 1990's. The town, which is quite cosmopolitan today, was almost totally white and rather conservative at the time. The "social engineering" and relative liberalism of northern Virginia wouldn't arrive for several years yet. I distinctly remember one day in first or second grade being asked to draw a picture of my family. I didn't color in the faces because I didn't want to use the brown crayon for that when everyone else was using the cream-colored crayon. Nobody told me that brown was bad or anything silly like that--it was just obvious even as a small child that looking different than the people around you was significant.

nether 12y ago

I feel similarly I think as an asian mechanical engineer among a group of whites. On my first day, I was subjected to an excruciating conversation with one of them telling me about how he saw a movie "about asians." Yeah, I watched a tv show about whites too. Portlandia. Ugh I'm not a race. I'm a rock climber, long distance cyclist who likes to cook indian food, and read Tolstoy in a messy room. I drive a pickup truck that get shitty mileage but I can sleep in the back.