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I find that this often comes from a very shallow understanding of a deep issue. This ardent noncomformity seems to occur when a problem is discovered, no one kn

I find that this often comes from a very shallow understanding of a deep issue. This ardent noncomformity seems to occur when a problem is discovered, no one knows what to do about it, and it becomes "cool" to take an antithetical stance to its superficial faults. For example, it's now "cool" to hate suburbia. Most of the kids in Williamsburg go on about how much they hate the suburban environment they grew up in. Now, there's a lot to dislike about the typical suburb: whether it's the low-quality and unattractive housing, the racism and classism behind it, the restructuring of life around child-raising that (paradoxically) results in it being done poorly-- kids are better socialized if their parents have adult friends who aren't all parents-- and finally the expensive environmental catastrophe of billions of unnecessary, pointless driving miles. And yet... hating suburbia is about as "suburban", in the negative sense, as it gets. The hipsters are rebelling against middle-class conformity and insularity by taking attitudes and tastes from the lower and upper classes, often haphazardly without knowing what they're doing. It's a vote of no confidence in the old, mostly suburban, middle class... maybe it's also a bet on peak oil, and the unwinding of car culture is one thing I really like (but you don't need to be a hipster to ride a bike) but... mostly it's about class. The problem is that this rebellion strengthens many of the bad things that it seems to be fighting. Jersey suburbs may be out of style, but Williamsburg landlords are making out like bandits. No real change. On the whole, most of what's billed as "hipster culture" is just lame Cali suburb culture in an urban environment.

coldtea 12y ago
I'm not sure you got that right. Tons of hipsters in Sheattle, Portland (Portlandia, duh!), Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, etc. As in, downtown. And of course tons of them in London, Paris, Barcelona, Denmark, etc. So why there might be suburban hipsters, hipsterism itself has nothing specific to do with the suburbs.
- gohrt 12y ago
  Parent poster didn't say hipters live in suburbs. He said hipsters have a "suburban" mindset.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Which is also incorrect. Plus you have to live in the suburbs to have a "suburban mindset" -- the notion that a Bronx hipster has a "suburban mindset" because "he hates the suburbs" is frankly BS. I think his explanation is fixated on the suburbs, but hipsterism with all the essential characteristics it has now was always a thing (minus inconsequntial specifics on stuff lile clothing brands, facial hair preferences, music group affiliations, etc that change over time). Heck, even back a century ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Negro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Negro
    - ForHackernews 12y ago
      > the notion that a Bronx hipster has a "suburban mindset" because "he hates the suburbs" is frankly BS. The idea is that Bronx hipsters have a "suburban mindset" because they grew up in the suburbs. They're upper-middle class kids whose parents raised them in the 'burbs, and that's where they had their formative life experiences. They hate the suburbs because they're self-consciously rejecting their upbringing.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  >As in, downtown. As in, not from here but moved here within the past few years from a comfortable middle-class existence in the suburbs or some small town, in the case of Chicago at least. Chicago has always been this way, though; any hip cultural history that it has had in the past 40 years was produced by people not from here (like New York.) What's the most obvious indication that someone is not from Chicago? A tattoo of the Chicago flag.
Retric 12y ago
Even in the 1950's plenty of people hated the suburbs. But when looking at larger trends you need to consider larger changes that made city living much more pleasant in comparison. First a dramatic drop in crime. In many ways there were similar rates of criminals in the suburbs, but the lower density defused their impact. EX: Kids throwing rocks through car windows spend more time walking and less time destroying things in the suburbs. But the same applies to pickpockets or home invasions etc. Coupled with local reporting looking at the absolute numbers of crimes vs and ignoring the rate of said crime. (That's 5 blocks from here fells vary different than that's 20 miles from here.) Second, dramatically increased air quality due to the loss of the manufacturing sector and improved pollution controls on cars. PS: One of the more interesting ideas on urban renewal basically goes like this. The Gay community does not care about local schools and is willing to trade poor schools for cheaper housing. They raise the rates slightly and push out the poor population. Fewer kids and higher property taxes improve schools which attracts young people who further drive up rents pushing out the Gay community who don't care about schools. And the cycle continues. Crime rates can be dramatically different over just a few blocks, but having a stable buffer zone is very important. (You can substitute young people without kids in the model they serve the same function but they tend to spread out more diffusing the impact.)

coldtea 12y ago

I'm not sure you got that right. Tons of hipsters in Sheattle, Portland (Portlandia, duh!), Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, etc. As in, downtown. And of course tons of them in London, Paris, Barcelona, Denmark, etc. So why there might be suburban hipsters, hipsterism itself has nothing specific to do with the suburbs.

gohrt 12y ago
Parent poster didn't say hipters live in suburbs. He said hipsters have a "suburban" mindset.
- coldtea 12y ago
  Which is also incorrect. Plus you have to live in the suburbs to have a "suburban mindset" -- the notion that a Bronx hipster has a "suburban mindset" because "he hates the suburbs" is frankly BS. I think his explanation is fixated on the suburbs, but hipsterism with all the essential characteristics it has now was always a thing (minus inconsequntial specifics on stuff lile clothing brands, facial hair preferences, music group affiliations, etc that change over time). Heck, even back a century ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Negro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Negro
  - ForHackernews 12y ago
    > the notion that a Bronx hipster has a "suburban mindset" because "he hates the suburbs" is frankly BS. The idea is that Bronx hipsters have a "suburban mindset" because they grew up in the suburbs. They're upper-middle class kids whose parents raised them in the 'burbs, and that's where they had their formative life experiences. They hate the suburbs because they're self-consciously rejecting their upbringing.
pessimizer 12y ago
>As in, downtown. As in, not from here but moved here within the past few years from a comfortable middle-class existence in the suburbs or some small town, in the case of Chicago at least. Chicago has always been this way, though; any hip cultural history that it has had in the past 40 years was produced by people not from here (like New York.) What's the most obvious indication that someone is not from Chicago? A tattoo of the Chicago flag.

Retric 12y ago

Even in the 1950's plenty of people hated the suburbs. But when looking at larger trends you need to consider larger changes that made city living much more pleasant in comparison. First a dramatic drop in crime. In many ways there were similar rates of criminals in the suburbs, but the lower density defused their impact. EX: Kids throwing rocks through car windows spend more time walking and less time destroying things in the suburbs. But the same applies to pickpockets or home invasions etc. Coupled with local reporting looking at the absolute numbers of crimes vs and ignoring the rate of said crime. (That's 5 blocks from here fells vary different than that's 20 miles from here.) Second, dramatically increased air quality due to the loss of the manufacturing sector and improved pollution controls on cars. PS: One of the more interesting ideas on urban renewal basically goes like this. The Gay community does not care about local schools and is willing to trade poor schools for cheaper housing. They raise the rates slightly and push out the poor population. Fewer kids and higher property taxes improve schools which attracts young people who further drive up rents pushing out the Gay community who don't care about schools. And the cycle continues. Crime rates can be dramatically different over just a few blocks, but having a stable buffer zone is very important. (You can substitute young people without kids in the model they serve the same function but they tend to spread out more diffusing the impact.)