8 ms·

Woz’s take on the Apple 1’s noisy -5 volt supply

223 points by fogus 12y ago

EvanAnderson 12y ago
I'm consistently impressed by the sincerity and humility that comes through in what Woz says and writes. Not only is he a great engineer, but he just seems like a really great guy.
- LeonM 12y ago
  Woz sure seems like a humble guy. You should read his biography 'iWoz' [0], it's a really nice read. [0] http://www.amazon.com/iWoz-Computer-Invented-Personal-Co-Founded/dp/0393330435 http://www.amazon.com/iWoz-Computer-Invented-Personal-Co-Fou...
  - maskedinvader 12y ago
    yup, an absolutely amazing read, having recently finished reading it, I have even more respect for the guy and his work. I am really hoping the new jobs movie puts him in better light than what the last movie did.
  - ics 12y ago
    Though it might be attributable to bad writing/editing on the part his co-author, iWoz is by far the worst, most disappointing book I've read this year. It is essentially a 300-page 'humblebrag' about how smart he knows he was as a kid, how he's still kind of a kid, and what qualifies as bad things other people do versus pranks I pull. Read it for the interesting facts (in between reminiscences of the middle school science fair) and historical perspective, not for the writing or, as far as I can tell, to glimpse Woz's real character.
    - ProAm 12y ago
      Have you read a better autobiography or biography about Woz? I thought the book was great. (Almost all autobiography's are 'humblebrags')
      - ics 12y ago
        Unfortunately no, I don't know of any other biographies of Woz that I could recommend. It's the only thing holding me back from saying "don't read this" in my previous comment.
        mod 12y ago
        For me, "by far the worst, most disappointing book I've read this year" is pretty much saying "don't read this." In fact, I think I'd be more inclined to read it had you said "don't read this" (compared to what you actually said).
        sdenton4 12y ago
        Perhaps it's the ONLY book he's read this year?
    - danso 12y ago
      This is the polar opposite of how I feel about Woz's book. I started reading it after first reading the Jobs biography, in which I found the parts about Woz to be the most fun to read. I never finished the Jobs biography after getting iWoz. If the book reads like a "humblebrag", it's because it WAS a humblebrag...Woz decided to write it after apparently being frustrated with how Jobs was getting all the credit for Apple's early innovations...and in my opinion, Woz was 100% entitled to shout from the walls his amazing accomplishments. I'm surprised you say that the book doesn't provide insight to Woz's real character. If anything, one of the book's shortcomings is that it reads as if an overexcited kid wrote it...but that seems to be Woz's actual character. You didn't find it at all interesting to read about Woz's insecurities, and how he basically created the Apple I as a means to have something to initiate small talk about with Homebrew club members? One of the best chapters was when Woz explained getting through the trauma of his airplane crash. Other descriptions of the incident are considerably more darker, but Woz approaches it as you'd expect an engineer to.
      - ics 12y ago
        (1) Agree that he has the right to brag. (2) I'm sure his character is much deeper and more interesting than what I perceived just by reading the book, without knowing him personally– that is what I mean. As I said, I'm inclined to attribute the issues I have either with the writer, editor, or some dynamic in between. If the whole thing was presented in a 45 minute long lecture, I'd have been pretty excited. As an autobiography, I was disappointed. (Thanks for the thoughtful reply by the way– if I didn't have to run I'd try to give a more thorough exposition.)
    - gareim 12y ago
      I just want to add that I couldn't get past the first third of the book for the same reason. It felt like every chapter was another "humblebrag" event and the pranks weren't really that funny to me either. I'm sure Woz is an amazing guy though. I would love to learn more about one of the giants from just before my time if anyone has another book they could recommend.
      - jcheng 12y ago
        > I would love to learn more about one of the giants from just before my time if anyone has another book they could recommend. It's been years and years since I read this, but I remember really enjoying it: http://www.amazon.com/Out-their-Minds-Discoveries-Scientists/dp/0387982698 http://www.amazon.com/Out-their-Minds-Discoveries-Scientists...
      - CamperBob2 12y ago
        You've got to read iWoz in the context of the times it refers to. Jobs and Woz started out as a couple of naive, idealistic young hippies. Only one of them really changed. A biography of Woz is never going to read like a glossy, romanticized biography of Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, Andrew Viterbi, Elon Musk or whoever. That's not who he is. He's... well, he's Woz. It takes all kinds, especially his.
    - psp 12y ago
      I really enjoyed iWoz book - even so much that I wrote directly to Steve to thank him for writing it. It's warm and inspiring book and especially the last chapters about following your passion really made it for me.
jaysonelliot 12y ago
My favorite quote from Woz's reply is this: "I awoke one night in Quito, Ecuador, this year and came up with a way to save a chip or two from the Apple II, and a trivial way to have the 2 grays of the Apple II be different (light gray and dark gray) but it’s 38 years too late." This is how you know you love your work. When you're still thinking of new things you can optimize, even four decades later.
- jgrahamc 12y ago
  I would buy Woz's improved Apple ][ if he started selling them.
  - shawn-butler 12y ago
    How much would you be willing to pay?
    - jgrahamc 12y ago
      £50?
    - CamperBob2 12y ago
      "Shut up and take my $666!"
  - yitchelle 12y ago
    What would you do with it?
  - rbanffy 12y ago
    It would be interesting to build an Apple IV, following on with the ///, removing every constraint on ][ compatibility and making it //c compatible. The IIgs, while impressive, was actually a brand new 16-bit computer with a //c built in.
- melling 12y ago
  Why is that cool? There's no doubt that Woz brilliant. However, I wish he had a second act. That he would come out with some sort of cool wearable or something else. Steve Jobs kept trying to invent the next big thing. Apple II, Macintosh, NeXT, iPod, iPhone. For some reason, engineers often don't think like this
RankingMember 12y ago
There's a guy who genuinely lives/breathes electronics.
BigTuna 12y ago
When you read responses like this it's impossible not to be in awe of the guy. He's a great role model for newer generations both in his passion for his work and his top-notch personality.
Danieru 12y ago
I want to hear how he'd do the gray thing, it sounds interesting.
- Siecje 12y ago
  There is a comment on the page that touches on it.
raverbashing 12y ago
Yes, there's always something to optimize, but also shipping is needed. I'm not sure what the -5v was used on, but apparently it wasn't a huge issue. It doesn't matter anymore. It matters what you can learn with it.
- cnvogel 12y ago
  It's the DRAM. Mostek MK4027 (1 Chip, 4096x1 bits each), needs +5V, -5V and +12V. https://www.google.de/search?q=Mostek+MK4027 https://www.google.de/search?q=Mostek+MK4027
alexose 12y ago
) Don't worry-- I closed the unclosed parenthesis.
boxcardavin 12y ago
Woz is such a cool guy, he reminds a lot of startup guys of how much pure fun tech was when you were 8-15yrs old and not thinking about money.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
nagarjun 12y ago
Fantastic to see how humble he is with his response. He could have easily said "that's how it was done back then and it was really the best thing out there" but, he didn't. The stuff of legend.
jamesaguilar 12y ago
Hi, I've been trying to figure this out for a while, and it's a hell of a thing to get Google to understand. Can someone explain why the rail is referred to as "-5v" instead of its opposite simply being called "5v"?
- rrmm 12y ago
  The power supply output 12, 5, -5, -12 volts. -5v rail was for the DRAM.
- pjc50 12y ago
  Because it's 5V below the "ground"/0V rail which most things are referenced to. It's very inconvenient to keep referring to the 17V rail and the 10V rail above the 5V return rail, so you call those 12V, 5V and 0V. The majority return current is in the 0V rail. The -5V rail supplies (conventional) current which also returns to the 0V rail. (In fact there is usually very little current in the -5V rail, just leakage through transistors; it's used as a bias voltage for the DRAM substrate. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TgW3LTubREQC&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=use+of+negative+voltage+in+dram&source=bl&ots=l0IvmAMlsi&sig=0Elvj-h3RBqOJ0JAKP43d2xA8YY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u_JZVO3JA8rY7Aa8joCIDg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=use%20of%20negative%20voltage%20in%20dram&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TgW3LTubREQC&pg=PA158&lpg... )

223 points by fogus 12y ago

I'm consistently impressed by the sincerity and humility that comes through in what Woz says and writes. Not only is he a great engineer, but he just seems like a really great guy.

LeonM 12y ago
Woz sure seems like a humble guy. You should read his biography 'iWoz' [0], it's a really nice read. [0] http://www.amazon.com/iWoz-Computer-Invented-Personal-Co-Founded/dp/0393330435 http://www.amazon.com/iWoz-Computer-Invented-Personal-Co-Fou...
- maskedinvader 12y ago
  yup, an absolutely amazing read, having recently finished reading it, I have even more respect for the guy and his work. I am really hoping the new jobs movie puts him in better light than what the last movie did.
- ics 12y ago
  Though it might be attributable to bad writing/editing on the part his co-author, iWoz is by far the worst, most disappointing book I've read this year. It is essentially a 300-page 'humblebrag' about how smart he knows he was as a kid, how he's still kind of a kid, and what qualifies as bad things other people do versus pranks I pull. Read it for the interesting facts (in between reminiscences of the middle school science fair) and historical perspective, not for the writing or, as far as I can tell, to glimpse Woz's real character.
  - ProAm 12y ago
    Have you read a better autobiography or biography about Woz? I thought the book was great. (Almost all autobiography's are 'humblebrags')
    - ics 12y ago
      Unfortunately no, I don't know of any other biographies of Woz that I could recommend. It's the only thing holding me back from saying "don't read this" in my previous comment.
      - mod 12y ago
        For me, "by far the worst, most disappointing book I've read this year" is pretty much saying "don't read this." In fact, I think I'd be more inclined to read it had you said "don't read this" (compared to what you actually said).
        sdenton4 12y ago
        Perhaps it's the ONLY book he's read this year?
  - danso 12y ago
    This is the polar opposite of how I feel about Woz's book. I started reading it after first reading the Jobs biography, in which I found the parts about Woz to be the most fun to read. I never finished the Jobs biography after getting iWoz. If the book reads like a "humblebrag", it's because it WAS a humblebrag...Woz decided to write it after apparently being frustrated with how Jobs was getting all the credit for Apple's early innovations...and in my opinion, Woz was 100% entitled to shout from the walls his amazing accomplishments. I'm surprised you say that the book doesn't provide insight to Woz's real character. If anything, one of the book's shortcomings is that it reads as if an overexcited kid wrote it...but that seems to be Woz's actual character. You didn't find it at all interesting to read about Woz's insecurities, and how he basically created the Apple I as a means to have something to initiate small talk about with Homebrew club members? One of the best chapters was when Woz explained getting through the trauma of his airplane crash. Other descriptions of the incident are considerably more darker, but Woz approaches it as you'd expect an engineer to.
    - ics 12y ago
      (1) Agree that he has the right to brag. (2) I'm sure his character is much deeper and more interesting than what I perceived just by reading the book, without knowing him personally– that is what I mean. As I said, I'm inclined to attribute the issues I have either with the writer, editor, or some dynamic in between. If the whole thing was presented in a 45 minute long lecture, I'd have been pretty excited. As an autobiography, I was disappointed. (Thanks for the thoughtful reply by the way– if I didn't have to run I'd try to give a more thorough exposition.)
  - gareim 12y ago
    I just want to add that I couldn't get past the first third of the book for the same reason. It felt like every chapter was another "humblebrag" event and the pranks weren't really that funny to me either. I'm sure Woz is an amazing guy though. I would love to learn more about one of the giants from just before my time if anyone has another book they could recommend.
    - jcheng 12y ago
      > I would love to learn more about one of the giants from just before my time if anyone has another book they could recommend. It's been years and years since I read this, but I remember really enjoying it: http://www.amazon.com/Out-their-Minds-Discoveries-Scientists/dp/0387982698 http://www.amazon.com/Out-their-Minds-Discoveries-Scientists...
    - CamperBob2 12y ago
      You've got to read iWoz in the context of the times it refers to. Jobs and Woz started out as a couple of naive, idealistic young hippies. Only one of them really changed. A biography of Woz is never going to read like a glossy, romanticized biography of Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, Andrew Viterbi, Elon Musk or whoever. That's not who he is. He's... well, he's Woz. It takes all kinds, especially his.
  - psp 12y ago
    I really enjoyed iWoz book - even so much that I wrote directly to Steve to thank him for writing it. It's warm and inspiring book and especially the last chapters about following your passion really made it for me.

jaysonelliot 12y ago

My favorite quote from Woz's reply is this: "I awoke one night in Quito, Ecuador, this year and came up with a way to save a chip or two from the Apple II, and a trivial way to have the 2 grays of the Apple II be different (light gray and dark gray) but it’s 38 years too late." This is how you know you love your work. When you're still thinking of new things you can optimize, even four decades later.

jgrahamc 12y ago
I would buy Woz's improved Apple ][ if he started selling them.
- shawn-butler 12y ago
  How much would you be willing to pay?
  - jgrahamc 12y ago
    £50?
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    "Shut up and take my $666!"
- yitchelle 12y ago
  What would you do with it?
- rbanffy 12y ago
  It would be interesting to build an Apple IV, following on with the ///, removing every constraint on ][ compatibility and making it //c compatible. The IIgs, while impressive, was actually a brand new 16-bit computer with a //c built in.
melling 12y ago
Why is that cool? There's no doubt that Woz brilliant. However, I wish he had a second act. That he would come out with some sort of cool wearable or something else. Steve Jobs kept trying to invent the next big thing. Apple II, Macintosh, NeXT, iPod, iPhone. For some reason, engineers often don't think like this

RankingMember 12y ago

There's a guy who genuinely lives/breathes electronics.

BigTuna 12y ago

When you read responses like this it's impossible not to be in awe of the guy. He's a great role model for newer generations both in his passion for his work and his top-notch personality.

Danieru 12y ago

I want to hear how he'd do the gray thing, it sounds interesting.

Siecje 12y ago
There is a comment on the page that touches on it.

raverbashing 12y ago

Yes, there's always something to optimize, but also shipping is needed. I'm not sure what the -5v was used on, but apparently it wasn't a huge issue. It doesn't matter anymore. It matters what you can learn with it.

cnvogel 12y ago
It's the DRAM. Mostek MK4027 (1 Chip, 4096x1 bits each), needs +5V, -5V and +12V. https://www.google.de/search?q=Mostek+MK4027 https://www.google.de/search?q=Mostek+MK4027

alexose 12y ago

) Don't worry-- I closed the unclosed parenthesis.

boxcardavin 12y ago

Woz is such a cool guy, he reminds a lot of startup guys of how much pure fun tech was when you were 8-15yrs old and not thinking about money.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

nagarjun 12y ago

Fantastic to see how humble he is with his response. He could have easily said "that's how it was done back then and it was really the best thing out there" but, he didn't. The stuff of legend.

jamesaguilar 12y ago

Hi, I've been trying to figure this out for a while, and it's a hell of a thing to get Google to understand. Can someone explain why the rail is referred to as "-5v" instead of its opposite simply being called "5v"?

rrmm 12y ago
The power supply output 12, 5, -5, -12 volts. -5v rail was for the DRAM.
pjc50 12y ago
Because it's 5V below the "ground"/0V rail which most things are referenced to. It's very inconvenient to keep referring to the 17V rail and the 10V rail above the 5V return rail, so you call those 12V, 5V and 0V. The majority return current is in the 0V rail. The -5V rail supplies (conventional) current which also returns to the 0V rail. (In fact there is usually very little current in the -5V rail, just leakage through transistors; it's used as a bias voltage for the DRAM substrate. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TgW3LTubREQC&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=use+of+negative+voltage+in+dram&source=bl&ots=l0IvmAMlsi&sig=0Elvj-h3RBqOJ0JAKP43d2xA8YY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u_JZVO3JA8rY7Aa8joCIDg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=use%20of%20negative%20voltage%20in%20dram&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TgW3LTubREQC&pg=PA158&lpg... )