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By definition, profit benefits society. Customers voluntarily buy products which companies sell voluntarily (at least in the typical case there are corner cases

by kriro 12y ago

By definition, profit benefits society. Customers voluntarily buy products which companies sell voluntarily (at least in the typical case there are corner cases of course). Both parties profit which is evident by the exchange taking place. Society is made up of individuals, if individuals profit so does society. Companies exist because there's opportunities for profit. So I'd argue they do indeed exist to improve society. On a larger scale one might say they improve society by allocating factors of production to the places where they are most useful.

jjoonathan 12y ago
> By definition, profit benefits society. No. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v4zI8gKuFug/T-vpFAjdXeI/AAAAAAAAB-c/un8iws6A1tI/s1600/Revelations_008.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v4zI8gKuFug/T-vpFAjdXeI/AAAAAAAAB-... More formally, Nash equilibria != global optima. It is not uncommon for companies to spend money destroying value for their customer -- and to profit from doing so! See: keurig DRM, speed grading in the semiconductor industry, Goldman Sachs cornering the Aluminum market, Enron shutting off power to create the infamous rolling blackouts. There are recordings of Enron traders literally giggling as they call plant managers to order them offline at times of peak load. Profit is about leverage, but value creation is only one of many ways to obtain leverage, and it's often not a very reliable or effective way (just ask Bengali sweatshop workers). Other methods for obtaining leverage are generally "evil" and most certainly do NOT benefit society, but they are very effective, especially in industries where best-practices have long since solidified and the only way to gain a competitive advantage is a sprinkling of "black magic". The most obvious dark patterns are illegal, but the lethargic whack-a-mole from our legislative and judicial branches is nowhere near sufficient to stem the tide.
- conjecTech 12y ago
  You've shown profit is not necessarily optimally beneficial for customers. You haven't show that it isn't still beneficial.
  - jjoonathan 12y ago
    It's not impossible that redistributing piles of cash from California citizens to Enron shareholders, employees, and execs in return for intentionally cutting off electricity was a net benefit for society. But I doubt it. And so should you. Focusing on the fact that we can't finish the proof without an assumption along the lines of "financially incentivizing companies to treat customers poorly is bad for society" is very much in the same vein as arguing that we can't prove one way or another if there will be an alien invasion in the next year => let's assume there's a 50/50 chance.

by kriro 12y ago

jjoonathan 12y ago

> By definition, profit benefits society. No. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v4zI8gKuFug/T-vpFAjdXeI/AAAAAAAAB-c/un8iws6A1tI/s1600/Revelations_008.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v4zI8gKuFug/T-vpFAjdXeI/AAAAAAAAB-... More formally, Nash equilibria != global optima. It is not uncommon for companies to spend money destroying value for their customer -- and to profit from doing so! See: keurig DRM, speed grading in the semiconductor industry, Goldman Sachs cornering the Aluminum market, Enron shutting off power to create the infamous rolling blackouts. There are recordings of Enron traders literally giggling as they call plant managers to order them offline at times of peak load. Profit is about leverage, but value creation is only one of many ways to obtain leverage, and it's often not a very reliable or effective way (just ask Bengali sweatshop workers). Other methods for obtaining leverage are generally "evil" and most certainly do NOT benefit society, but they are very effective, especially in industries where best-practices have long since solidified and the only way to gain a competitive advantage is a sprinkling of "black magic". The most obvious dark patterns are illegal, but the lethargic whack-a-mole from our legislative and judicial branches is nowhere near sufficient to stem the tide.

conjecTech 12y ago
You've shown profit is not necessarily optimally beneficial for customers. You haven't show that it isn't still beneficial.
- jjoonathan 12y ago
  It's not impossible that redistributing piles of cash from California citizens to Enron shareholders, employees, and execs in return for intentionally cutting off electricity was a net benefit for society. But I doubt it. And so should you. Focusing on the fact that we can't finish the proof without an assumption along the lines of "financially incentivizing companies to treat customers poorly is bad for society" is very much in the same vein as arguing that we can't prove one way or another if there will be an alien invasion in the next year => let's assume there's a 50/50 chance.