4 ms·

Project Indect Set To Monitor Europe Like it’s 1984

23 points by kkleiner 17y ago

metachris 17y ago
I've been working on parts of project Indect since July, mainly doing things with OpenCV -- tiny little cogs of this whole surveillance system. Still I'm very troubled by it's nature and not really sure what to think of it... I try to justify it to myself saying, (1) it's just so tiny parts and (2) if i'm not doing it somebody else will. Sometimes this works, sometimes not. On the other hand I see it as a chance for myself to get to know this system from the inside. I'm often asking myself if it's ethically ok for me to write algorithms for such a system -- and I probably might stop because of these questions and the very nature of this project. I'm seriously troubled as this really is kind of 1984 -- a highly automatized surveillance system networked with the police. But on the other hand, this is just the state of the art, and actually plenty of research projects around the world are working on exactly this subject. It will come -- the only question is when and how. what would be your thoughts in that situation?
- GPM212 17y ago
  First, thanks for giving us an inside perspective on the project. Second...Your comments are exactly the point of the article: these technologies are already here in some form, they are simply being refined/updated/improved/applied,etc Furthermore, whether or not Indect succeeds in its objectives, the objectives themselves will be accomplished by someone. Third: It is up to the public to make decisions about what kind of privacy it wants and needs, and to do so they need to be informed. At least Project Indect has made its objectives known and open for review. I'm sure there exist many other programs with the same objectives that are operating in secret. If the public decides it can accept the 'new privacy' then Indect should continue and metachris and everyone who works on that project should feel proud to do so. If the public rejects the invasion of privacy then they need to push for new technologies to defeat/defend against the intrusions because the development of the intrusion technology cannot and will not be stopped.
- jules 17y ago
  > (1) it's just so tiny parts and (2) if i'm not doing it somebody else will. Think about other moments in history when people justified their actions by this reasoning. OTOH it's not just your responsibility. Leak as much information as possible before the system makes that dangerous ;) Do other people you work with feel bad about what they are doing? Then realize that they keep doing it because you keep doing it, and you do because they do.
  - metachris 17y ago
    > Think about other moments in history when people justified their actions by this reasoning. Yeah -- it's kind of obvious... except that it isn't just that easy for me. There are many technical highly interesting aspects, and it's fun to be working with C and plain algorithm development after a couple of years more into application development. Also, I'm pretty broke because I mostly do free software, so the money is appreciated as well. (I know how this sounds, but I just try to be honest) > Do other people you work with feel bad about what they are doing? Most people I'm working with (which is just about 4 -- we are doing a small package of the whole project) are not feeling bad at all -- probably not even questioning the purpose and consequences of such a system. They are just happy about being part of this project. And there are enough people that would like to jump right in. > Then realize that they keep doing it because you keep doing it, and you do because they do. Probably. But I think they are not doing it because I do it, but I do it because they do... Still I think critical about all this, and will try to make up my mind in november on how I want to go on.
tomjen2 17y ago
Why do I get the idea that this will end up like all the other government IT projects? Massively over budget, too late, full of bugs and too slow to actually do anything?
- metachris 17y ago
  even if, there will be a lot of new knowledge generated (even 'open' in form of papers) -- especially on where the problems with such a systems are and some ideas on how to solve them. the next approach will build on that and eventually succeed. else the next, and so on.

23 points by kkleiner 17y ago

I've been working on parts of project Indect since July, mainly doing things with OpenCV -- tiny little cogs of this whole surveillance system. Still I'm very troubled by it's nature and not really sure what to think of it... I try to justify it to myself saying, (1) it's just so tiny parts and (2) if i'm not doing it somebody else will. Sometimes this works, sometimes not. On the other hand I see it as a chance for myself to get to know this system from the inside. I'm often asking myself if it's ethically ok for me to write algorithms for such a system -- and I probably might stop because of these questions and the very nature of this project. I'm seriously troubled as this really is kind of 1984 -- a highly automatized surveillance system networked with the police. But on the other hand, this is just the state of the art, and actually plenty of research projects around the world are working on exactly this subject. It will come -- the only question is when and how. what would be your thoughts in that situation?

GPM212 17y ago
First, thanks for giving us an inside perspective on the project. Second...Your comments are exactly the point of the article: these technologies are already here in some form, they are simply being refined/updated/improved/applied,etc Furthermore, whether or not Indect succeeds in its objectives, the objectives themselves will be accomplished by someone. Third: It is up to the public to make decisions about what kind of privacy it wants and needs, and to do so they need to be informed. At least Project Indect has made its objectives known and open for review. I'm sure there exist many other programs with the same objectives that are operating in secret. If the public decides it can accept the 'new privacy' then Indect should continue and metachris and everyone who works on that project should feel proud to do so. If the public rejects the invasion of privacy then they need to push for new technologies to defeat/defend against the intrusions because the development of the intrusion technology cannot and will not be stopped.
jules 17y ago
> (1) it's just so tiny parts and (2) if i'm not doing it somebody else will. Think about other moments in history when people justified their actions by this reasoning. OTOH it's not just your responsibility. Leak as much information as possible before the system makes that dangerous ;) Do other people you work with feel bad about what they are doing? Then realize that they keep doing it because you keep doing it, and you do because they do.
- metachris 17y ago
  > Think about other moments in history when people justified their actions by this reasoning. Yeah -- it's kind of obvious... except that it isn't just that easy for me. There are many technical highly interesting aspects, and it's fun to be working with C and plain algorithm development after a couple of years more into application development. Also, I'm pretty broke because I mostly do free software, so the money is appreciated as well. (I know how this sounds, but I just try to be honest) > Do other people you work with feel bad about what they are doing? Most people I'm working with (which is just about 4 -- we are doing a small package of the whole project) are not feeling bad at all -- probably not even questioning the purpose and consequences of such a system. They are just happy about being part of this project. And there are enough people that would like to jump right in. > Then realize that they keep doing it because you keep doing it, and you do because they do. Probably. But I think they are not doing it because I do it, but I do it because they do... Still I think critical about all this, and will try to make up my mind in november on how I want to go on.

tomjen2 17y ago

Why do I get the idea that this will end up like all the other government IT projects? Massively over budget, too late, full of bugs and too slow to actually do anything?

metachris 17y ago
even if, there will be a lot of new knowledge generated (even 'open' in form of papers) -- especially on where the problems with such a systems are and some ideas on how to solve them. the next approach will build on that and eventually succeed. else the next, and so on.