5 ms·

sounds like it's not the place for you. a household making "only" $120k, no matter where you live, puts you in the top 15% by income in the US--hardly the "work

sounds like it's not the place for you. a household making "only" $120k, no matter where you live, puts you in the top 15% by income in the US--hardly the "working poor" (see census data). trying to keep up with the joneses, on the other hand, can warp your sense of relative privilege. top 15% in the US is among the top few percent in the world. keep that in mind, and that'll help assuage the negative feelings that can arise from comparing yourself to those you otherwise consider your peers.

john_b 12y ago
Being in the top 15th percentile of income might not be as much of a consolation if you live in the second most expensive metro area in the U.S.
jiggy2011 12y ago
If house prices are as bad as HN indicates I can understand how that income could put a person if not in the "working poor" then into the lower middle class.
- x0x0 12y ago
  look at this map: 2 bedrooms under $3500/mo in sf http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/sfc/apa?sort=priceasc&maxAsk=3500&bedrooms=2 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/sfc/apa?sort=priceasc&max... know that competition is tight enough that if the apartments are decent, they will be rented on the spot during the showings, and often for much more than the asking price. An acquaintance was looking for months and finally got an apartment because he and his roommate offered $250/mo over asking.
  - htormey 12y ago
    East bay is pretty reasonable if you work in SF: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/eby/apa?sort=priceasc&maxAsk=3500&bedrooms=2 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/eby/apa?sort=priceasc&max...
x0x0 12y ago
You don't understand what it costs to live here. Keeping up with the Joneses means envy for new and shiny, not wanting a modest house, cars, kids, and retirement savings. And here, that means an income of $250k is tough to do -- one bedrooms in sf are $3500; condos in the peninsula sell for $700k+ and houses cost $1100/ft^2. $240k married filing jointly w/ 2 kids means $5900 hits your bank account twice a month. Essentially all of one of those paychecks will go to housing in sf, or a mortgage + taxes on the peninsula. That leaves $6k per month to live off -- which is certainly doable, but between childcare (at least after school w/ both parents working, possibly more), utilities, telecomm, cars, savings, groceries, and all the miscellaneous costs of life such as clothes, doctors visits, etc -- you aren't saving much money. ps -- it's stupid to look at national statistics for income when this is the #1 most expensive housing market in the US. At least nyc has good transport options between Manhattan and Brooklyn / Queens. Here we have caltrain or the 580. I mean, here's a home right here [1] -- 4 bedrooms for $315k! Of course, it's in Madison, WI -- but that shows housing prices are just fine in sfbay :rolleyes: [1] http://madison.craigslist.org/reo/4668467650.html http://madison.craigslist.org/reo/4668467650.html @smtddr: we're not discussing what most people have; we're discussing what you can get in the bay area on $240k. Otoh, if you're now claiming that keeping up with the joneses == a middle class life, ie wanting a modest house, cars, kids, and retirement savings, then the plutocrats have won.
- smtddr 12y ago
  >>not wanting a modest house, cars, kids, and retirement savings I'm going to go out on a limb here and say most people in USA don't even have all those things.
  - alttab 12y ago
    Which really only furthers the point of discussion IMO.
  - beat 12y ago
    But most people want them, and arguably deserve them. The "kill my neighbor's cow so everything is even" is an even more toxic thought pattern than the Prisoner's Dilemma that constitutes our mainstream. Think big, man.
jforman 12y ago
"No matter where you live" ? The 80th percentile for household income in 2012 was $160,000. This does really crazy things to a relatively static housing supply: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/In-growth-of-wealth-gap-we-re-No-1-5281174.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/In-growth-of-wealth-ga... This isn't just about "keeping up with the Joneses." Most families want a) a decent home, and b) a good education for their children. I had to pay an obscene amount for a) in SF, and I was holding my breath while figuring out how to pull off b). My quality of life otherwise was relatively ordinary: I drove a Toyota and didn't go out all that much due to the newborn. I made a princely sum compared to the average American. Had I lived in average America, I would have lived like a prince (you could literally buy a mansion for the price of my 3BR home in most places in the US). But since I lived in SF, I could only barely afford the basics. This has nothing to do with skewed expectations on quality of life — it's about the skewed economics of the city.
- clairity 12y ago
  that $160k figure is for residents of san francisco, not the nation as a whole, which is what i was quoting, and is the whole point of what i posted. you're comparing yourself to your neighbors, not the nearly 7 billion other people on the planet or the 270 million americans who are less well-off than you. relatively ordinary is relatively amazing for the rest of the world. it's about perspective.

john_b 12y ago

Being in the top 15th percentile of income might not be as much of a consolation if you live in the second most expensive metro area in the U.S.

jiggy2011 12y ago

If house prices are as bad as HN indicates I can understand how that income could put a person if not in the "working poor" then into the lower middle class.

x0x0 12y ago
look at this map: 2 bedrooms under $3500/mo in sf http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/sfc/apa?sort=priceasc&maxAsk=3500&bedrooms=2 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/sfc/apa?sort=priceasc&max... know that competition is tight enough that if the apartments are decent, they will be rented on the spot during the showings, and often for much more than the asking price. An acquaintance was looking for months and finally got an apartment because he and his roommate offered $250/mo over asking.
- htormey 12y ago
  East bay is pretty reasonable if you work in SF: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/eby/apa?sort=priceasc&maxAsk=3500&bedrooms=2 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/eby/apa?sort=priceasc&max...

x0x0 12y ago

You don't understand what it costs to live here. Keeping up with the Joneses means envy for new and shiny, not wanting a modest house, cars, kids, and retirement savings. And here, that means an income of $250k is tough to do -- one bedrooms in sf are $3500; condos in the peninsula sell for $700k+ and houses cost $1100/ft^2. $240k married filing jointly w/ 2 kids means $5900 hits your bank account twice a month. Essentially all of one of those paychecks will go to housing in sf, or a mortgage + taxes on the peninsula. That leaves $6k per month to live off -- which is certainly doable, but between childcare (at least after school w/ both parents working, possibly more), utilities, telecomm, cars, savings, groceries, and all the miscellaneous costs of life such as clothes, doctors visits, etc -- you aren't saving much money. ps -- it's stupid to look at national statistics for income when this is the #1 most expensive housing market in the US. At least nyc has good transport options between Manhattan and Brooklyn / Queens. Here we have caltrain or the 580. I mean, here's a home right here [1] -- 4 bedrooms for $315k! Of course, it's in Madison, WI -- but that shows housing prices are just fine in sfbay :rolleyes: [1] http://madison.craigslist.org/reo/4668467650.html http://madison.craigslist.org/reo/4668467650.html @smtddr: we're not discussing what most people have; we're discussing what you can get in the bay area on $240k. Otoh, if you're now claiming that keeping up with the joneses == a middle class life, ie wanting a modest house, cars, kids, and retirement savings, then the plutocrats have won.

smtddr 12y ago
>>not wanting a modest house, cars, kids, and retirement savings I'm going to go out on a limb here and say most people in USA don't even have all those things.
- alttab 12y ago
  Which really only furthers the point of discussion IMO.
- beat 12y ago
  But most people want them, and arguably deserve them. The "kill my neighbor's cow so everything is even" is an even more toxic thought pattern than the Prisoner's Dilemma that constitutes our mainstream. Think big, man.

jforman 12y ago

"No matter where you live" ? The 80th percentile for household income in 2012 was $160,000. This does really crazy things to a relatively static housing supply: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/In-growth-of-wealth-gap-we-re-No-1-5281174.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/In-growth-of-wealth-ga... This isn't just about "keeping up with the Joneses." Most families want a) a decent home, and b) a good education for their children. I had to pay an obscene amount for a) in SF, and I was holding my breath while figuring out how to pull off b). My quality of life otherwise was relatively ordinary: I drove a Toyota and didn't go out all that much due to the newborn. I made a princely sum compared to the average American. Had I lived in average America, I would have lived like a prince (you could literally buy a mansion for the price of my 3BR home in most places in the US). But since I lived in SF, I could only barely afford the basics. This has nothing to do with skewed expectations on quality of life — it's about the skewed economics of the city.

clairity 12y ago
that $160k figure is for residents of san francisco, not the nation as a whole, which is what i was quoting, and is the whole point of what i posted. you're comparing yourself to your neighbors, not the nearly 7 billion other people on the planet or the 270 million americans who are less well-off than you. relatively ordinary is relatively amazing for the rest of the world. it's about perspective.