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This is exactly what I fear happens when we allow bad laws to stay in a "well it's there but we don't enforce it" state. Is the way around this to develop cryp

This is exactly what I fear happens when we allow bad laws to stay in a "well it's there but we don't enforce it" state. Is the way around this to develop crypto systems outside the US?

lucb1e 12y ago
If I remember correctly, someone published a book which contained source code in monospace for PGP so that it would fall under freedom of speech and was allowed to leave the US. But that's from memory, I'm not sure it really did circumvent that law or that it was PGP. Edit: Ah, AlyssaRowan actually mentions[1] this further down the comment thread: > PGP 2.6.2 was exported as a book to call the bluff of the whole thing [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8552169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8552169
- rosser 12y ago
  Yes, it was PGP, and yes, it got around the law. The issue was indeed that exporting it as software made it subject to ITAR, but published as a book, it was considered speech. The tactic was never tested in court with PGP, but it was upheld in at least one other case I'm aware of, Bernstein v. United States. Thank you yet again, DJB.
- LLWM 12y ago
  That doesn't prove anything. You can also export a physics textbook without the issues you would run into exporting a nuclear weapon.
  - lucb1e 12y ago
    Except that you don't really need to buy expensive and probably-hard-to-get-by stuff to turn the book with code into something useful (or munition, in the US government's eyes) whereas with nuclear weapons you somehow need to get a radioactive warhead or something.
    - LLWM 12y ago
      No, you need something even harder - expert knowledge.
DINKDINK 12y ago
Laws that aren't actively enforced by the state are solely there exist so that they can be used to persecute undesirables. It creates the illusion of a free society while keeping an implied state of control against the public. The only just act to do is repeal or nullify the law.

This is exactly what I fear happens when we allow bad laws to stay in a "well it's there but we don't enforce it" state. Is the way around this to develop crypto systems outside the US?

lucb1e 12y ago

If I remember correctly, someone published a book which contained source code in monospace for PGP so that it would fall under freedom of speech and was allowed to leave the US. But that's from memory, I'm not sure it really did circumvent that law or that it was PGP. Edit: Ah, AlyssaRowan actually mentions[1] this further down the comment thread: > PGP 2.6.2 was exported as a book to call the bluff of the whole thing [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8552169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8552169

rosser 12y ago
Yes, it was PGP, and yes, it got around the law. The issue was indeed that exporting it as software made it subject to ITAR, but published as a book, it was considered speech. The tactic was never tested in court with PGP, but it was upheld in at least one other case I'm aware of, Bernstein v. United States. Thank you yet again, DJB.
LLWM 12y ago
That doesn't prove anything. You can also export a physics textbook without the issues you would run into exporting a nuclear weapon.
- lucb1e 12y ago
  Except that you don't really need to buy expensive and probably-hard-to-get-by stuff to turn the book with code into something useful (or munition, in the US government's eyes) whereas with nuclear weapons you somehow need to get a radioactive warhead or something.
  - LLWM 12y ago
    No, you need something even harder - expert knowledge.

DINKDINK 12y ago

Laws that aren't actively enforced by the state are solely there exist so that they can be used to persecute undesirables. It creates the illusion of a free society while keeping an implied state of control against the public. The only just act to do is repeal or nullify the law.