4 ms·

Your continual use of the word 'envy' belittles the psychological affects of poverty. Your use of that word seems to imply that poor people can somehow eradica

by ap22213 12y ago

Your continual use of the word 'envy' belittles the psychological affects of poverty. Your use of that word seems to imply that poor people can somehow eradicate their psychological suffering through positive thinking or something similar. It's the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach to reducing poverty, as US conservatives so frequently say. It is these clever uses of words that aim to reduce very complex issues to simplistic ones, ignoring systematic affects and pointing blame at individual irresponsibility.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
And yet, I can't shake the feeling that if you took away all my money and property, I would be employed and back in an apartment in a month. What's a guy to think, when folks complain about how its too hard to move, to get an education, to save money, when I know I can do it? Its hard to empathize with people with an outlook so different, that they can't imagine working their way out of poverty. Because I can.
- ap22213 12y ago
  Well, we could always do an experiment to see if you're right. Let's assume that you aren't able to use any existing education or connections, you start off with significant debt, and you are located in an area with high unemployment. If you are able to be back in your apartment in a month, I'll eat this computer. Edit: If we threw the idea up on kickstarter, I'm sure that there would be more than enough support to pay for your opportunity costs (assuming you're not independently wealthy). It'd be an interesting experiment.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Move. Get a job, any job. Don't spend any (much) money. Work to get a better job. And what's with the debt-but-no-education? How was that supposed to work? One or the other.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      I'd be interested to see how quickly you could get a minimum wage job. I'm not sure there's an ethical way to set up the experiment where you apply for a bunch of minimum wage jobs to see which ones you can get; and I doubt there's a way you can spend the time to do it. But I'd be really interested to know if you could get a minimum wage job within a fortnight.
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        Yeah everybody is all about 'job creation' etc. I've never had a job that existed before I had it. You find a problem to be solved, you can start solving it for money. I live in a small community. Most of the families are self-employed. Who created their job? They did. Didn't wait for some company to decide they were worth paying. So I have a problem with folks that wait for somebody to make a place for them. That's no way to run your life.
    - jbooth 12y ago
      "And what's with the debt-but-no-education? How was that supposed to work? One or the other." It's not very often in life that the phrase "check your privilege" is appropriate or reasonable, but right here, right now, that's picture perfect. I mean, you can't think of a single possible way that one could get into debt besides ivy-league loans, and you're saying that you understand what poor people have to deal with?
  - stephenbez 12y ago
    Someone did this experiment and wrote a book about it: Scratch Beginnings: Me, $25, and the Search for the American Dream http://www.amazon.com/Scratch-Beginnings-Search-American-Dream/dp/0061714275 http://www.amazon.com/Scratch-Beginnings-Search-American-Dre...
- kaitai 12y ago
  Well, let's take away all your money and property, give you three kids under 6, diabetes, dental problems, and a disabled spouse with a felony so you can't get housing assistance without leaving the spouse. That would be a more accurate representation of the difficulties people face. I would definitely watch that experiment and I think people would support it on Kickstarter. (People don't want to support the actual folks doing this that much -- it's depressing -- but it would be interesting to see someone with all the advantages of education, marketable skills, previous steady employment, and ease with middle- or upper-class mores and culture try to make it come together.)
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Definitely it would work better to be young, single and healthy. But aren't there an enormous demographic of just such people in poverty, jobless? That's what I was failing to empathize with.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > And yet, I can't shake the feeling that if you took away all my money and property, I would be employed and back in an apartment in a month. Perhaps. Certainly, the advantages of a relatively privileged condition aren't limited to money and property, but include lots of deeper advantages that (among other things) are useful for the gain of money and property. That's among the reasons why generational poverty is is generational, and requires active effort to break the cycle rather than simply the absence of active effort to maintain it. > What's a guy to think, when folks complain about how its too hard to move, to get an education, to save money, when I know I can do it? You could maybe use that ability to get an education you are so proud of to learn enough to have some broader basis for understanding the world than simply your experience of what you are able to do given your own particular circumstances.
- elif 12y ago
  note that for the purpose of argumentation, i'm assuming a lot of things about you which are generally true of our privileged class, though might not be specifically: Yes, you likely would be back in an apartment with a job. because when you grew up your mistakes didn't result in a felony charge, and because you have not had to burn through so much credit you can nolonger even open an account.. because you had enough resources to graduate high school rather than sling drugs. Because until now most of your health issues until now have been solved rather than pushed off and allowed to worsen. And most importantly, because you've developed social ties to the institutionally established rich class.

by ap22213 12y ago

JoeAltmaier 12y ago

And yet, I can't shake the feeling that if you took away all my money and property, I would be employed and back in an apartment in a month. What's a guy to think, when folks complain about how its too hard to move, to get an education, to save money, when I know I can do it? Its hard to empathize with people with an outlook so different, that they can't imagine working their way out of poverty. Because I can.

ap22213 12y ago
Well, we could always do an experiment to see if you're right. Let's assume that you aren't able to use any existing education or connections, you start off with significant debt, and you are located in an area with high unemployment. If you are able to be back in your apartment in a month, I'll eat this computer. Edit: If we threw the idea up on kickstarter, I'm sure that there would be more than enough support to pay for your opportunity costs (assuming you're not independently wealthy). It'd be an interesting experiment.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Move. Get a job, any job. Don't spend any (much) money. Work to get a better job. And what's with the debt-but-no-education? How was that supposed to work? One or the other.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    I'd be interested to see how quickly you could get a minimum wage job. I'm not sure there's an ethical way to set up the experiment where you apply for a bunch of minimum wage jobs to see which ones you can get; and I doubt there's a way you can spend the time to do it. But I'd be really interested to know if you could get a minimum wage job within a fortnight.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Yeah everybody is all about 'job creation' etc. I've never had a job that existed before I had it. You find a problem to be solved, you can start solving it for money. I live in a small community. Most of the families are self-employed. Who created their job? They did. Didn't wait for some company to decide they were worth paying. So I have a problem with folks that wait for somebody to make a place for them. That's no way to run your life.
  - jbooth 12y ago
    "And what's with the debt-but-no-education? How was that supposed to work? One or the other." It's not very often in life that the phrase "check your privilege" is appropriate or reasonable, but right here, right now, that's picture perfect. I mean, you can't think of a single possible way that one could get into debt besides ivy-league loans, and you're saying that you understand what poor people have to deal with?
- stephenbez 12y ago
  Someone did this experiment and wrote a book about it: Scratch Beginnings: Me, $25, and the Search for the American Dream http://www.amazon.com/Scratch-Beginnings-Search-American-Dream/dp/0061714275 http://www.amazon.com/Scratch-Beginnings-Search-American-Dre...
kaitai 12y ago
Well, let's take away all your money and property, give you three kids under 6, diabetes, dental problems, and a disabled spouse with a felony so you can't get housing assistance without leaving the spouse. That would be a more accurate representation of the difficulties people face. I would definitely watch that experiment and I think people would support it on Kickstarter. (People don't want to support the actual folks doing this that much -- it's depressing -- but it would be interesting to see someone with all the advantages of education, marketable skills, previous steady employment, and ease with middle- or upper-class mores and culture try to make it come together.)
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Definitely it would work better to be young, single and healthy. But aren't there an enormous demographic of just such people in poverty, jobless? That's what I was failing to empathize with.
dragonwriter 12y ago
> And yet, I can't shake the feeling that if you took away all my money and property, I would be employed and back in an apartment in a month. Perhaps. Certainly, the advantages of a relatively privileged condition aren't limited to money and property, but include lots of deeper advantages that (among other things) are useful for the gain of money and property. That's among the reasons why generational poverty is is generational, and requires active effort to break the cycle rather than simply the absence of active effort to maintain it. > What's a guy to think, when folks complain about how its too hard to move, to get an education, to save money, when I know I can do it? You could maybe use that ability to get an education you are so proud of to learn enough to have some broader basis for understanding the world than simply your experience of what you are able to do given your own particular circumstances.
elif 12y ago
note that for the purpose of argumentation, i'm assuming a lot of things about you which are generally true of our privileged class, though might not be specifically: Yes, you likely would be back in an apartment with a job. because when you grew up your mistakes didn't result in a felony charge, and because you have not had to burn through so much credit you can nolonger even open an account.. because you had enough resources to graduate high school rather than sling drugs. Because until now most of your health issues until now have been solved rather than pushed off and allowed to worsen. And most importantly, because you've developed social ties to the institutionally established rich class.