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There have been studies that showed that the psychological problems that stem from being poor have little to do with your absolute wealth. It's more of a peer-t

by SCHiM 12y ago

There have been studies that showed that the psychological problems that stem from being poor have little to do with your absolute wealth. It's more of a peer-thing. If you're the poorest man in a very rich peer-group you'll still feel miserable and less. The problem then with being poor in America is not that you're rich compared to a farmer in vietnam, the problem is that you're poor compared to the people you see on your crappy TV. To quote the report: "Mental health is also a key pathway through which inequality impacts on health. There is overwhelming evidence that inequality is a key cause of stress in itself and also exacerbates the stress of coping with material deprivation"[0] [0] http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/100821/E92227.pdf http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/100821/E...

yummyfajitas 12y ago
Yes - as I said in my first post: What, precisely, do you believe poor Americans are suffering from? The only concrete answer I usually hear is envy The best solution I see to the problem of envy is directing social opprobrium towards people who exacerbate the problem (e.g., politicians appealing to envy, celebrity news publicizing lifestyles of the rich and famous).
- elif 12y ago
  I've had the privilege of having time to sit down and talk with plenty of folks struggling in the southeast US. None of them, that is zero, show any discernable 'envy.' What you are talking about is either a straw man or a deeply hidden psychological issue I just couldn't detect a hint of. Or perhaps you are mistaking the new paycheck-to-paycheck middle class for the actual poor. In my experience these are either fiercy proud or cynically hopeless people with so many immediate issues they lack even awareness about what us rich people are doing. The real problems they face are debilitating sickness, taking care of a family member with debilitating sickness, struggling to continue sleeping where they are presently, struggling with maintaining a human identity in a society that treats them subhumanly, trying to get hired as a felon, trying to secure the trust of any financial institution, trying to break drug habits and cope with psychosis and other mental illnesses without access to a pharmacy or non-ER doctor.
- ap22213 12y ago
  Your continual use of the word 'envy' belittles the psychological affects of poverty. Your use of that word seems to imply that poor people can somehow eradicate their psychological suffering through positive thinking or something similar. It's the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach to reducing poverty, as US conservatives so frequently say. It is these clever uses of words that aim to reduce very complex issues to simplistic ones, ignoring systematic affects and pointing blame at individual irresponsibility.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    And yet, I can't shake the feeling that if you took away all my money and property, I would be employed and back in an apartment in a month. What's a guy to think, when folks complain about how its too hard to move, to get an education, to save money, when I know I can do it? Its hard to empathize with people with an outlook so different, that they can't imagine working their way out of poverty. Because I can.
    - ap22213 12y ago
      Well, we could always do an experiment to see if you're right. Let's assume that you aren't able to use any existing education or connections, you start off with significant debt, and you are located in an area with high unemployment. If you are able to be back in your apartment in a month, I'll eat this computer. Edit: If we threw the idea up on kickstarter, I'm sure that there would be more than enough support to pay for your opportunity costs (assuming you're not independently wealthy). It'd be an interesting experiment.
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        Move. Get a job, any job. Don't spend any (much) money. Work to get a better job. And what's with the debt-but-no-education? How was that supposed to work? One or the other.
        DanBC 12y ago
- SCHiM 12y ago
  This is not about envy, and you sound very condescending to me by calling the issues these people have 'envy'. This is about serious mental illness caused by a perception of enormous inequality. Envy is just an emotion, not a way of life. The cause of their problems is not just from celebrity news or politics. It's the very society we live in. You can't just ban advertisements for cars, or decide that cars can't look new on the street. In other words: it's not just the things they see on tv that can spark these problems. Everything around them lets them know they're at the lowest rung of a very large ladder to the socio-economic top. You're suggesting that we try to make the ladder appear shorter, or somehow hide the top from view. Apart from the fact that, as outlined above, this cannot effectively be done in my opinion. I also find it morally offensive that you'd rather defend a system that is likely not perfectly compatible with human nature. You'd rather try to remove the perception of inequality than the inequality itself. If we cannot change how humans react to inequality: we get jealous, get sick, turn criminal or exhibit other negative traits. Then we should instead change our society to address the real issue: the inequality itself, and not just it's perception. Now doing that would be a whole other barrel of fish obviously.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    I don't know what you mean by "serious mental illness" or "way of life". You seem to be describing negative feelings, specifically a longing aroused by qualities someone else has. That's envy, according to the standard definition. If you'd rather use the a different term to avoid inspiring negative feelings about me, feel free to suggest one. For the remainder of this post I'll use the term "Mind State X" to describe an unpleasant mental state resulting from the observation that other people possess qualities that you wish you had. If we cannot change how humans react to inequality: we get jealous, get sick, turn criminal or exhibit other negative traits. Then we should instead change our society to address the real issue: the inequality itself, and not just it's perception. Now doing that would be a whole other barrel of fish obviously. I'm confused. Is inequality intrinsically bad? If so, then Mind State X is irrelevant, and you should be able to make that argument without it. If Mind State X is the thing that is bad, then inequality is irrelevant if it does not cause Mind State X. Lets also generalize this discussion of Mind State X. Many non-money related things cause Mind State X - I'm tall and good looking, some people are short and ugly. I have sex with many women, some people are involuntarily celibate. I'm somewhat skinny, other people are far more muscular than me. These things can also cause Mind State X. For example, a woman I used to sleep with is now sleeping with someone who is much stronger and more muscular than me. I feel Mind State X as a result. I believe the solution is that she shouldn't inform me of this. You believe the solution would be for her to be prevented from doing this, I take it? On to practical matters: Everything around them lets them know they're at the lowest rung of a very large ladder to the socio-economic top. Residential segregation and targeted advertising would seem to be a great way to address this. Luckily the world is moving in that direction anyway.

by SCHiM 12y ago

yummyfajitas 12y ago

Yes - as I said in my first post: What, precisely, do you believe poor Americans are suffering from? The only concrete answer I usually hear is envy The best solution I see to the problem of envy is directing social opprobrium towards people who exacerbate the problem (e.g., politicians appealing to envy, celebrity news publicizing lifestyles of the rich and famous).

elif 12y ago
I've had the privilege of having time to sit down and talk with plenty of folks struggling in the southeast US. None of them, that is zero, show any discernable 'envy.' What you are talking about is either a straw man or a deeply hidden psychological issue I just couldn't detect a hint of. Or perhaps you are mistaking the new paycheck-to-paycheck middle class for the actual poor. In my experience these are either fiercy proud or cynically hopeless people with so many immediate issues they lack even awareness about what us rich people are doing. The real problems they face are debilitating sickness, taking care of a family member with debilitating sickness, struggling to continue sleeping where they are presently, struggling with maintaining a human identity in a society that treats them subhumanly, trying to get hired as a felon, trying to secure the trust of any financial institution, trying to break drug habits and cope with psychosis and other mental illnesses without access to a pharmacy or non-ER doctor.
ap22213 12y ago
Your continual use of the word 'envy' belittles the psychological affects of poverty. Your use of that word seems to imply that poor people can somehow eradicate their psychological suffering through positive thinking or something similar. It's the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach to reducing poverty, as US conservatives so frequently say. It is these clever uses of words that aim to reduce very complex issues to simplistic ones, ignoring systematic affects and pointing blame at individual irresponsibility.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  And yet, I can't shake the feeling that if you took away all my money and property, I would be employed and back in an apartment in a month. What's a guy to think, when folks complain about how its too hard to move, to get an education, to save money, when I know I can do it? Its hard to empathize with people with an outlook so different, that they can't imagine working their way out of poverty. Because I can.
  - ap22213 12y ago
    Well, we could always do an experiment to see if you're right. Let's assume that you aren't able to use any existing education or connections, you start off with significant debt, and you are located in an area with high unemployment. If you are able to be back in your apartment in a month, I'll eat this computer. Edit: If we threw the idea up on kickstarter, I'm sure that there would be more than enough support to pay for your opportunity costs (assuming you're not independently wealthy). It'd be an interesting experiment.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Move. Get a job, any job. Don't spend any (much) money. Work to get a better job. And what's with the debt-but-no-education? How was that supposed to work? One or the other.
      - DanBC 12y ago
SCHiM 12y ago
This is not about envy, and you sound very condescending to me by calling the issues these people have 'envy'. This is about serious mental illness caused by a perception of enormous inequality. Envy is just an emotion, not a way of life. The cause of their problems is not just from celebrity news or politics. It's the very society we live in. You can't just ban advertisements for cars, or decide that cars can't look new on the street. In other words: it's not just the things they see on tv that can spark these problems. Everything around them lets them know they're at the lowest rung of a very large ladder to the socio-economic top. You're suggesting that we try to make the ladder appear shorter, or somehow hide the top from view. Apart from the fact that, as outlined above, this cannot effectively be done in my opinion. I also find it morally offensive that you'd rather defend a system that is likely not perfectly compatible with human nature. You'd rather try to remove the perception of inequality than the inequality itself. If we cannot change how humans react to inequality: we get jealous, get sick, turn criminal or exhibit other negative traits. Then we should instead change our society to address the real issue: the inequality itself, and not just it's perception. Now doing that would be a whole other barrel of fish obviously.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  I don't know what you mean by "serious mental illness" or "way of life". You seem to be describing negative feelings, specifically a longing aroused by qualities someone else has. That's envy, according to the standard definition. If you'd rather use the a different term to avoid inspiring negative feelings about me, feel free to suggest one. For the remainder of this post I'll use the term "Mind State X" to describe an unpleasant mental state resulting from the observation that other people possess qualities that you wish you had. If we cannot change how humans react to inequality: we get jealous, get sick, turn criminal or exhibit other negative traits. Then we should instead change our society to address the real issue: the inequality itself, and not just it's perception. Now doing that would be a whole other barrel of fish obviously. I'm confused. Is inequality intrinsically bad? If so, then Mind State X is irrelevant, and you should be able to make that argument without it. If Mind State X is the thing that is bad, then inequality is irrelevant if it does not cause Mind State X. Lets also generalize this discussion of Mind State X. Many non-money related things cause Mind State X - I'm tall and good looking, some people are short and ugly. I have sex with many women, some people are involuntarily celibate. I'm somewhat skinny, other people are far more muscular than me. These things can also cause Mind State X. For example, a woman I used to sleep with is now sleeping with someone who is much stronger and more muscular than me. I feel Mind State X as a result. I believe the solution is that she shouldn't inform me of this. You believe the solution would be for her to be prevented from doing this, I take it? On to practical matters: Everything around them lets them know they're at the lowest rung of a very large ladder to the socio-economic top. Residential segregation and targeted advertising would seem to be a great way to address this. Luckily the world is moving in that direction anyway.