4 ms·

Unnecessary staw man, you're putting words in my mouth, I did not ask for a police intervention or criminalization. I'm happy for this situation to be resolved

Unnecessary staw man, you're putting words in my mouth, I did not ask for a police intervention or criminalization. I'm happy for this situation to be resolved in whatever most humane and compassionate way possible. I'm in no position to propose solutions, as I don't have any expertise in this field. I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me or do something else completely unpredictable to me.

DanBC 12y ago
People with a mental health problem are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence. Most violent crime is not committed by people with a mental illness. While I appreciate the concern you show for the piss-poor inhumane brutal lack of treatment your country provides to those with a mental illness (despite spending more per capita on health) it'd be nice if you could do it without stigmatising mental ill-health.
- ketralnis 12y ago
  I appreciate what you're trying to say, but he's not talking about a random sampling of mentally ill people. He's talking about a person that's kicking a bunch of seats around and generally indicating a potential for violence. Whether or not we're talking about mental illness, we're talking about someone that's current being violent.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    There's a clear extrapolation from that one person being violent[1] to the idea that people with mental illness are in general violent. > Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day. BadassFractal didn't witness that, but assumes it was done by someone with a mental health problem rather than someone who's just an angry arsehole. > I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me This is directly linking mental ill health to violence, and it's just as abhorrent as linking violent crime to African Americans. Those visibly infirm people are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence -- even if you remove self-inflicted violence. [1] to property, not as far as I know to people. EDIT: http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php > - "Although studies suggest a link between mental illnesses and violence, the contribution of people with mental illnesses to overall rates of violence is small, and further, the magnitude of the relationship is greatly exaggerated in the minds of the general population (Institute of Medicine, 2006)." > - "…the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)." > - "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)." > -"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al.,1999)." > The effects of stigma and discrimination are profound. The President’s New Freedom Commission on Mental Health found that, “Stigma leads others to avoid living, socializing, or working with, renting to, or employing people with mental disorders - especially severe disorders, such as schizophrenia. It leads to low self-esteem, isolation, and hopelessness. It deters the public from seeking and wanting to pay for care. Responding to stigma, people with mental health problems internalize public attitudes and become so embarrassed or ashamed that they often conceal symptoms and fail to seek treatment (New Freedom Commission, 2003).”
    - Kalium 12y ago
      OK. So now the question is "What can we do to help, given that there's already lots of money sloshing around"? Rather than lecture on what not to do, what do you propose as steps towards resolving these problems?
      - DanBC 12y ago
        "don't stigmatise people with a mental illness" is the call to action. Stigma prevents people getting help, even for mild MH problems that respond well to talking therapy. Stigma increases social isolation and reduces opportunities for work. We know that both of these make mental illness worse.
        BadassFractal 12y ago
        Respectfully, I don't see how this is actionable for me as an individual. Ok, I'm not stigmatizing people with mental illness, now what? I still have hundreds, if not more people, with mental illness roaming downtown, living on the streets, regularly leaving feces on sidewalks, screaming at passerbys and expressing what appears violent behavior and nothing is being done about it.
        DanBC 12y ago
        I can't fix your police or healthcare systems, and I do appreciate that it sucks if you have people behaving unpredictably around you. We do need to remember that if they have a mental illness then they're probably not living on the streets out of choice, and that if they had affordable meds and healthcare you would be seeing a lot less people on the street. What I can do is to ask you to not assume that violent behaviour is a result of a mental health problem; or to not assume that a person with a mental illness is going to be violent. (Apparently I can do that more politely than I have so far.)
        Kalium 12y ago
        I disagree. It's a negative step - don't do X, for some value of X. OK. Fine. What's next? I asked in search of positive steps.

DanBC 12y ago

People with a mental health problem are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence. Most violent crime is not committed by people with a mental illness. While I appreciate the concern you show for the piss-poor inhumane brutal lack of treatment your country provides to those with a mental illness (despite spending more per capita on health) it'd be nice if you could do it without stigmatising mental ill-health.

ketralnis 12y ago
I appreciate what you're trying to say, but he's not talking about a random sampling of mentally ill people. He's talking about a person that's kicking a bunch of seats around and generally indicating a potential for violence. Whether or not we're talking about mental illness, we're talking about someone that's current being violent.
- DanBC 12y ago
  There's a clear extrapolation from that one person being violent[1] to the idea that people with mental illness are in general violent. > Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day. BadassFractal didn't witness that, but assumes it was done by someone with a mental health problem rather than someone who's just an angry arsehole. > I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me This is directly linking mental ill health to violence, and it's just as abhorrent as linking violent crime to African Americans. Those visibly infirm people are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence -- even if you remove self-inflicted violence. [1] to property, not as far as I know to people. EDIT: http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php > - "Although studies suggest a link between mental illnesses and violence, the contribution of people with mental illnesses to overall rates of violence is small, and further, the magnitude of the relationship is greatly exaggerated in the minds of the general population (Institute of Medicine, 2006)." > - "…the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)." > - "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)." > -"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al.,1999)." > The effects of stigma and discrimination are profound. The President’s New Freedom Commission on Mental Health found that, “Stigma leads others to avoid living, socializing, or working with, renting to, or employing people with mental disorders - especially severe disorders, such as schizophrenia. It leads to low self-esteem, isolation, and hopelessness. It deters the public from seeking and wanting to pay for care. Responding to stigma, people with mental health problems internalize public attitudes and become so embarrassed or ashamed that they often conceal symptoms and fail to seek treatment (New Freedom Commission, 2003).”
  - Kalium 12y ago
    OK. So now the question is "What can we do to help, given that there's already lots of money sloshing around"? Rather than lecture on what not to do, what do you propose as steps towards resolving these problems?
    - DanBC 12y ago
      "don't stigmatise people with a mental illness" is the call to action. Stigma prevents people getting help, even for mild MH problems that respond well to talking therapy. Stigma increases social isolation and reduces opportunities for work. We know that both of these make mental illness worse.
      - BadassFractal 12y ago
        Respectfully, I don't see how this is actionable for me as an individual. Ok, I'm not stigmatizing people with mental illness, now what? I still have hundreds, if not more people, with mental illness roaming downtown, living on the streets, regularly leaving feces on sidewalks, screaming at passerbys and expressing what appears violent behavior and nothing is being done about it.
        DanBC 12y ago
        I can't fix your police or healthcare systems, and I do appreciate that it sucks if you have people behaving unpredictably around you. We do need to remember that if they have a mental illness then they're probably not living on the streets out of choice, and that if they had affordable meds and healthcare you would be seeing a lot less people on the street. What I can do is to ask you to not assume that violent behaviour is a result of a mental health problem; or to not assume that a person with a mental illness is going to be violent. (Apparently I can do that more politely than I have so far.)
      - Kalium 12y ago
        I disagree. It's a negative step - don't do X, for some value of X. OK. Fine. What's next? I asked in search of positive steps.