5 ms·

Just yesterday in the civic center area here in SF I'm getting a sandwich and this mentally ill (or really high, or both) bum lady walks into the shop and proce

Just yesterday in the civic center area here in SF I'm getting a sandwich and this mentally ill (or really high, or both) bum lady walks into the shop and proceeds to howl at the top of her lungs for 10 minutes, dance around the shop, kick down a bunch of seats. Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day. Nothing. The staff is used to it, I'm used to it, the other patrons are used to it, we just let them do their thing and hope they don't throw anything at us in the process. This is right on Market St, you'd think the city would be proud of its downtown. What am I supposed to do as a resident? I'm not a cop, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a psychiatrist, I can't fix this. I'm just a guy who gives away something like half of his income in taxes and it's not clear what's happening to all that cash. If we're going to keep this place in an embarrassing state, I would at least like some of my money back.

na85 12y ago
Are you suggesting that the police need to intervene if someone is howling at the top of their lungs and kicking seats? Did they do any damage? Your attitude is the reason people with mental health issues often are reluctant to seek help. Because they are stigmatized, and mental health is quickly becoming criminalized.
- BadassFractal 12y ago
  Unnecessary staw man, you're putting words in my mouth, I did not ask for a police intervention or criminalization. I'm happy for this situation to be resolved in whatever most humane and compassionate way possible. I'm in no position to propose solutions, as I don't have any expertise in this field. I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me or do something else completely unpredictable to me.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    People with a mental health problem are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence. Most violent crime is not committed by people with a mental illness. While I appreciate the concern you show for the piss-poor inhumane brutal lack of treatment your country provides to those with a mental illness (despite spending more per capita on health) it'd be nice if you could do it without stigmatising mental ill-health.
    - ketralnis 12y ago
      I appreciate what you're trying to say, but he's not talking about a random sampling of mentally ill people. He's talking about a person that's kicking a bunch of seats around and generally indicating a potential for violence. Whether or not we're talking about mental illness, we're talking about someone that's current being violent.
      - DanBC 12y ago
        There's a clear extrapolation from that one person being violent[1] to the idea that people with mental illness are in general violent. > Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day. BadassFractal didn't witness that, but assumes it was done by someone with a mental health problem rather than someone who's just an angry arsehole. > I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me This is directly linking mental ill health to violence, and it's just as abhorrent as linking violent crime to African Americans. Those visibly infirm people are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence -- even if you remove self-inflicted violence. [1] to property, not as far as I know to people. EDIT: http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php > - "Although studies suggest a link between mental illnesses and violence, the contribution of people with mental illnesses to overall rates of violence is small, and further, the magnitude of the relationship is greatly exaggerated in the minds of the general population (Institute of Medicine, 2006)." > - "…the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)." > - "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)." > -"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al.,1999)." > The effects of stigma and discrimination are profound. The President’s New Freedom Commission on Mental Health found that, “Stigma leads others to avoid living, socializing, or working with, renting to, or employing people with mental disorders - especially severe disorders, such as schizophrenia. It leads to low self-esteem, isolation, and hopelessness. It deters the public from seeking and wanting to pay for care. Responding to stigma, people with mental health problems internalize public attitudes and become so embarrassed or ashamed that they often conceal symptoms and fail to seek treatment (New Freedom Commission, 2003).”
- crashedsnow 12y ago
  I don't think so. I think they're suggesting that there is a torrent of cash pouring into the city's coffers and negative progress to show for it. It's either systemic corruption, or incompetence on a galactic scale. Either way I agree. I want my money back.
raldi 12y ago
> What am I supposed to do as a resident? Vote to repeal Prop 13 when the opportunity arises, and tell others to do the same. At some point, polling will indicate that it has a chance of happening, and then someone will put it on the ballot.
- pmorici 12y ago
  How would raising property taxes stop homeless people from acting belligerently in public?
  - raldi 12y ago
    It would pay for better homeless care and more, higher-quality police officers.
    - BadassFractal 12y ago
      Admittedly I don't know much about this, but it remains to be seen whether this is an issue that stems from the city not having enough money. Fascinating how this is somewhat reminiscent of the whole education discussion we've had for years: schools need more money vs schools are terrible at allocating money correctly.
    - discardorama 12y ago
      Ah, another of those "let's throw more money at the problem, and maybe that'll fix it" people. Firstly: the City has no shortage of money. The City's budget this year is a whopping $8.6 Billion dollars. For a city of 850,000 people, that's quite a lot. Secondly: the City already spends a lot on homelessness; the direct spending per homeless person exceeds $12,000/year. There are task forces galore on this problem, and nothing makes a dent. Thirdly: SFPD is already among the highest paid in the country. Rookie officers can make more than $100K/year with overtime. There is no accountability; and they'd rather shoot than treat a mentally ill person properly: http://www.vice.com/read/most-of-the-people-killed-by-the-san-francisco-police-department-were-mentally-ill http://www.vice.com/read/most-of-the-people-killed-by-the-sa... And finally: this "throw more money without accountability" approach is a part of the problem. It provides an economic incentive to do a shitty job, because hey, doing a bad job gets more money!!
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dobbsbob 12y ago
Plenty of other cities have this problem http://www.straight.com/news/714781/mental-health-arrests-vancouver-climb-five-year-high http://www.straight.com/news/714781/mental-health-arrests-va... Severely mentally ill and violent people wandering the streets, committing rampant property crime to feed drug habits which make them even more unstable.
wozniacki 12y ago
Whatever you do in manner of becoming vocal about such dysfunctions, attending SFPD meetings, building support for ballot measures by getting the community involved and other efforts to address dysfunction, graft and full blown corruption in the city's affairs ... whatever else you do Please Do Not Leave The City Set down roots here if you want to change the way this city functions and lives. If you can, own a home ( I know that is asking a lot in the current climate ). Home ownership is key to instilling a sense of belonging to the city. This is one of the areas in which, the gay population of Castro has succeeded mightily. Good for them. If you just pick up your things and leave - like previous middle class residents of SF have done, to Oakland or even beyond - this city will never change. This city needs sensible people. [1] SFPD Police Commission Agenda Calendar http://www.sf-police.org/meeting.aspx?page=4434 http://www.sf-police.org/meeting.aspx?page=4434
- Kalium 12y ago
  As I understand current SF politics, trying to change things makes you the subject of hatred and protests. Not an encouraging set of results.
  - wozniacki 12y ago
    How can this possibly be? How is it possible for the leftists to have an absolute stranglehold on San Francisco politics, especially for so long? Is there not even a moderate wing, here?
    - Kalium 12y ago
      Like most any place, the people were there first see themselves as priviledged and those who come later as undeserving. In SF, this takes the form of "natives" and "techies". Left and right is the wrong way to look at it.
barry-cotter 12y ago
You live in San Francisco, what do you expect? When was it last a normal city?

na85 12y ago

Are you suggesting that the police need to intervene if someone is howling at the top of their lungs and kicking seats? Did they do any damage? Your attitude is the reason people with mental health issues often are reluctant to seek help. Because they are stigmatized, and mental health is quickly becoming criminalized.

BadassFractal 12y ago
Unnecessary staw man, you're putting words in my mouth, I did not ask for a police intervention or criminalization. I'm happy for this situation to be resolved in whatever most humane and compassionate way possible. I'm in no position to propose solutions, as I don't have any expertise in this field. I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me or do something else completely unpredictable to me.
- DanBC 12y ago
  People with a mental health problem are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence. Most violent crime is not committed by people with a mental illness. While I appreciate the concern you show for the piss-poor inhumane brutal lack of treatment your country provides to those with a mental illness (despite spending more per capita on health) it'd be nice if you could do it without stigmatising mental ill-health.
  - ketralnis 12y ago
    I appreciate what you're trying to say, but he's not talking about a random sampling of mentally ill people. He's talking about a person that's kicking a bunch of seats around and generally indicating a potential for violence. Whether or not we're talking about mental illness, we're talking about someone that's current being violent.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      There's a clear extrapolation from that one person being violent[1] to the idea that people with mental illness are in general violent. > Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day. BadassFractal didn't witness that, but assumes it was done by someone with a mental health problem rather than someone who's just an angry arsehole. > I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me This is directly linking mental ill health to violence, and it's just as abhorrent as linking violent crime to African Americans. Those visibly infirm people are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence -- even if you remove self-inflicted violence. [1] to property, not as far as I know to people. EDIT: http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php > - "Although studies suggest a link between mental illnesses and violence, the contribution of people with mental illnesses to overall rates of violence is small, and further, the magnitude of the relationship is greatly exaggerated in the minds of the general population (Institute of Medicine, 2006)." > - "…the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)." > - "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)." > -"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al.,1999)." > The effects of stigma and discrimination are profound. The President’s New Freedom Commission on Mental Health found that, “Stigma leads others to avoid living, socializing, or working with, renting to, or employing people with mental disorders - especially severe disorders, such as schizophrenia. It leads to low self-esteem, isolation, and hopelessness. It deters the public from seeking and wanting to pay for care. Responding to stigma, people with mental health problems internalize public attitudes and become so embarrassed or ashamed that they often conceal symptoms and fail to seek treatment (New Freedom Commission, 2003).”
crashedsnow 12y ago
I don't think so. I think they're suggesting that there is a torrent of cash pouring into the city's coffers and negative progress to show for it. It's either systemic corruption, or incompetence on a galactic scale. Either way I agree. I want my money back.

raldi 12y ago

> What am I supposed to do as a resident? Vote to repeal Prop 13 when the opportunity arises, and tell others to do the same. At some point, polling will indicate that it has a chance of happening, and then someone will put it on the ballot.

pmorici 12y ago
How would raising property taxes stop homeless people from acting belligerently in public?
- raldi 12y ago
  It would pay for better homeless care and more, higher-quality police officers.
  - BadassFractal 12y ago
    Admittedly I don't know much about this, but it remains to be seen whether this is an issue that stems from the city not having enough money. Fascinating how this is somewhat reminiscent of the whole education discussion we've had for years: schools need more money vs schools are terrible at allocating money correctly.
  - discardorama 12y ago
    Ah, another of those "let's throw more money at the problem, and maybe that'll fix it" people. Firstly: the City has no shortage of money. The City's budget this year is a whopping $8.6 Billion dollars. For a city of 850,000 people, that's quite a lot. Secondly: the City already spends a lot on homelessness; the direct spending per homeless person exceeds $12,000/year. There are task forces galore on this problem, and nothing makes a dent. Thirdly: SFPD is already among the highest paid in the country. Rookie officers can make more than $100K/year with overtime. There is no accountability; and they'd rather shoot than treat a mentally ill person properly: http://www.vice.com/read/most-of-the-people-killed-by-the-san-francisco-police-department-were-mentally-ill http://www.vice.com/read/most-of-the-people-killed-by-the-sa... And finally: this "throw more money without accountability" approach is a part of the problem. It provides an economic incentive to do a shitty job, because hey, doing a bad job gets more money!!

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dobbsbob 12y ago

Plenty of other cities have this problem http://www.straight.com/news/714781/mental-health-arrests-vancouver-climb-five-year-high http://www.straight.com/news/714781/mental-health-arrests-va... Severely mentally ill and violent people wandering the streets, committing rampant property crime to feed drug habits which make them even more unstable.

wozniacki 12y ago

Whatever you do in manner of becoming vocal about such dysfunctions, attending SFPD meetings, building support for ballot measures by getting the community involved and other efforts to address dysfunction, graft and full blown corruption in the city's affairs ... whatever else you do Please Do Not Leave The City Set down roots here if you want to change the way this city functions and lives. If you can, own a home ( I know that is asking a lot in the current climate ). Home ownership is key to instilling a sense of belonging to the city. This is one of the areas in which, the gay population of Castro has succeeded mightily. Good for them. If you just pick up your things and leave - like previous middle class residents of SF have done, to Oakland or even beyond - this city will never change. This city needs sensible people. [1] SFPD Police Commission Agenda Calendar http://www.sf-police.org/meeting.aspx?page=4434 http://www.sf-police.org/meeting.aspx?page=4434

Kalium 12y ago
As I understand current SF politics, trying to change things makes you the subject of hatred and protests. Not an encouraging set of results.
- wozniacki 12y ago
  How can this possibly be? How is it possible for the leftists to have an absolute stranglehold on San Francisco politics, especially for so long? Is there not even a moderate wing, here?
  - Kalium 12y ago
    Like most any place, the people were there first see themselves as priviledged and those who come later as undeserving. In SF, this takes the form of "natives" and "techies". Left and right is the wrong way to look at it.

barry-cotter 12y ago

You live in San Francisco, what do you expect? When was it last a normal city?