8 ms·

Take care of the small stuff and the big stuff will take care of itself. The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signaling

by panarky 12y ago

Take care of the small stuff and the big stuff will take care of itself. The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime[1]. From the article: There also was no proof who did the smash-and-grab, so even if [the police] had come, it would have been tricky to charge them with anything. That's hogwash. Possession of stolen property is a criminal offence in Washington State[2]. The crime and disorder in downtown Seattle is shocking, even to people from other big cities[3]. In 2013, Seattle had 2,356 property crimes per 100,000 population[4]. By comparison, New York City had a property crime rate of just 795 per 100,000[5]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory [2] http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/possession-stolen-property-Washington-State http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/possession-stolen-prope... [3] http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021696782_westneat28xml.html http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021696782_westneat28... [4] http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-january-june-2013/tables/table-4-cuts/table_4_offenses_reported_to_law_enforcement_by_state_oklahoma_through_wisconsin_2013.xls http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/p... [5] http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-january-june-2013/tables/table-4-cuts/table_4_offenses_reported_to_law_enforcement_by_state_montana_through_ohio_2013.xls http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/p...

x0x0 12y ago
sf is the same -- the city is a dump, and people there tolerate a level of misbehavior from the street trash that is stunning. One of them attempted to kill my so by chasing her around a parked car with a screwdriver trying to stab her while a bunch of sf asshole pedestrians crossed the street to avoid getting involved. In the middle of the afternoon. We came from nyc and stuff like this -- and it's far from the only incident -- wasn't tolerated.
- raldi 12y ago
  New York can also manage to win a World Series without allowing the city to be taken over for the night by violent, destructive mobs. That's because they have a much better funded, and well-run, police force.
  - dobbsbob 12y ago
    A friend of mine in Washington DC can go down to a public park where they have movie night in the summer, and with a bunch of random people they can openly drink wine and enjoy a movie outside without incident. Every time they have temporarily relaxed drinking laws to try something similar here like DC movie night it resulted in brawling, stabbings, street hobos showing up to scream gibberish and aggressively pan handle, and the audience got so wrecked ambulances had to be called. It's like the heavy regulations that the West Coast cities screws into society creates a community that turns to bedlam the moment those chains are temporarily removed.
  - richard_cubano 12y ago
    It's not funding. It's the relative power of unions. In California, a cop costs $200k a year, when pensions and health care are factored in.
    - raldi 12y ago
      How much does one cost in NYC?
      - ende 12y ago
        How much ya got?
        ende 12y ago
        Downvoting comments like that is pointless and should be banned.
        ende 12y ago
BadassFractal 12y ago
Just yesterday in the civic center area here in SF I'm getting a sandwich and this mentally ill (or really high, or both) bum lady walks into the shop and proceeds to howl at the top of her lungs for 10 minutes, dance around the shop, kick down a bunch of seats. Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day. Nothing. The staff is used to it, I'm used to it, the other patrons are used to it, we just let them do their thing and hope they don't throw anything at us in the process. This is right on Market St, you'd think the city would be proud of its downtown. What am I supposed to do as a resident? I'm not a cop, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a psychiatrist, I can't fix this. I'm just a guy who gives away something like half of his income in taxes and it's not clear what's happening to all that cash. If we're going to keep this place in an embarrassing state, I would at least like some of my money back.
- na85 12y ago
  Are you suggesting that the police need to intervene if someone is howling at the top of their lungs and kicking seats? Did they do any damage? Your attitude is the reason people with mental health issues often are reluctant to seek help. Because they are stigmatized, and mental health is quickly becoming criminalized.
  - BadassFractal 12y ago
    Unnecessary staw man, you're putting words in my mouth, I did not ask for a police intervention or criminalization. I'm happy for this situation to be resolved in whatever most humane and compassionate way possible. I'm in no position to propose solutions, as I don't have any expertise in this field. I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me or do something else completely unpredictable to me.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      People with a mental health problem are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence. Most violent crime is not committed by people with a mental illness. While I appreciate the concern you show for the piss-poor inhumane brutal lack of treatment your country provides to those with a mental illness (despite spending more per capita on health) it'd be nice if you could do it without stigmatising mental ill-health.
mattgrice 12y ago
Urban decay refers to buildings and infrastructure falling apart. That is not happening in downtown Seattle. It seems you are using the term to refer to scary-looking people.
- dabockster 12y ago
  Nah, you're thinking of downtown Tacoma. The University of Washington is picking up the tab for a lot of the restoration, but it still on a multi-decade time table.
dionidium 12y ago
The problem with anecdotes like in [3] is that they don't really tell us much. I visited Seattle for the first time this fall and my experience was nothing like that. I did smell Marijuana once in public, but, otherwise, the streets were quite clean and I never felt unsafe downtown at night. The homeless were prevalent, but not on the scale you see in, say, San Francisco. I certainly wouldn't use the word "shocking" to describe anything I saw.
king_jester 12y ago
The broken windows theory is not accurate and is extremely controversial in its implementations. Moreover, the kinds of things broken windows fallacy argues against are not petty theft, but things involving infrastructure and the status of neighborhoods.

by panarky 12y ago

x0x0 12y ago

sf is the same -- the city is a dump, and people there tolerate a level of misbehavior from the street trash that is stunning. One of them attempted to kill my so by chasing her around a parked car with a screwdriver trying to stab her while a bunch of sf asshole pedestrians crossed the street to avoid getting involved. In the middle of the afternoon. We came from nyc and stuff like this -- and it's far from the only incident -- wasn't tolerated.

raldi 12y ago
New York can also manage to win a World Series without allowing the city to be taken over for the night by violent, destructive mobs. That's because they have a much better funded, and well-run, police force.
- dobbsbob 12y ago
  A friend of mine in Washington DC can go down to a public park where they have movie night in the summer, and with a bunch of random people they can openly drink wine and enjoy a movie outside without incident. Every time they have temporarily relaxed drinking laws to try something similar here like DC movie night it resulted in brawling, stabbings, street hobos showing up to scream gibberish and aggressively pan handle, and the audience got so wrecked ambulances had to be called. It's like the heavy regulations that the West Coast cities screws into society creates a community that turns to bedlam the moment those chains are temporarily removed.
- richard_cubano 12y ago
  It's not funding. It's the relative power of unions. In California, a cop costs $200k a year, when pensions and health care are factored in.
  - raldi 12y ago
    How much does one cost in NYC?
    - ende 12y ago
      How much ya got?
      - ende 12y ago
        Downvoting comments like that is pointless and should be banned.
      - ende 12y ago

BadassFractal 12y ago

Just yesterday in the civic center area here in SF I'm getting a sandwich and this mentally ill (or really high, or both) bum lady walks into the shop and proceeds to howl at the top of her lungs for 10 minutes, dance around the shop, kick down a bunch of seats. Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day. Nothing. The staff is used to it, I'm used to it, the other patrons are used to it, we just let them do their thing and hope they don't throw anything at us in the process. This is right on Market St, you'd think the city would be proud of its downtown. What am I supposed to do as a resident? I'm not a cop, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a psychiatrist, I can't fix this. I'm just a guy who gives away something like half of his income in taxes and it's not clear what's happening to all that cash. If we're going to keep this place in an embarrassing state, I would at least like some of my money back.

na85 12y ago
Are you suggesting that the police need to intervene if someone is howling at the top of their lungs and kicking seats? Did they do any damage? Your attitude is the reason people with mental health issues often are reluctant to seek help. Because they are stigmatized, and mental health is quickly becoming criminalized.
- BadassFractal 12y ago
  Unnecessary staw man, you're putting words in my mouth, I did not ask for a police intervention or criminalization. I'm happy for this situation to be resolved in whatever most humane and compassionate way possible. I'm in no position to propose solutions, as I don't have any expertise in this field. I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me or do something else completely unpredictable to me.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    People with a mental health problem are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence. Most violent crime is not committed by people with a mental illness. While I appreciate the concern you show for the piss-poor inhumane brutal lack of treatment your country provides to those with a mental illness (despite spending more per capita on health) it'd be nice if you could do it without stigmatising mental ill-health.

mattgrice 12y ago

Urban decay refers to buildings and infrastructure falling apart. That is not happening in downtown Seattle. It seems you are using the term to refer to scary-looking people.

dabockster 12y ago
Nah, you're thinking of downtown Tacoma. The University of Washington is picking up the tab for a lot of the restoration, but it still on a multi-decade time table.

dionidium 12y ago

The problem with anecdotes like in [3] is that they don't really tell us much. I visited Seattle for the first time this fall and my experience was nothing like that. I did smell Marijuana once in public, but, otherwise, the streets were quite clean and I never felt unsafe downtown at night. The homeless were prevalent, but not on the scale you see in, say, San Francisco. I certainly wouldn't use the word "shocking" to describe anything I saw.

king_jester 12y ago

The broken windows theory is not accurate and is extremely controversial in its implementations. Moreover, the kinds of things broken windows fallacy argues against are not petty theft, but things involving infrastructure and the status of neighborhoods.