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> The "30 minute introduction" starts by introducing the package manager, manifests, crates, and lock files. But it's easy. It says so, twice! "You should feel

by dbaupp 12y ago

> The "30 minute introduction" starts by introducing the package manager, manifests, crates, and lock files. But it's easy. It says so, twice! "You should feel right at home if you've used tools like Bundler, npm, or pip." Presumably you're implying something is not easy... But I don't understand why? That is, why does introducing the package manager (I.e. allowing people to jump straight in with nicer tooling) make the language not easy?

tormeh 12y ago
Because beginners generally don't care about tooling, external libraries etc. They want a compiler (and preferrably a REPL) and some language pointers and then write a program that searches for primes or whatever.
- shadowmint 12y ago
  There are lots of tutorials; if you want to dive straight into the code look at 'rust by example'. You dont even have to install rust to use it. Also, REPL is a cute toy, but absolutely not important and hard to do for compiled languages. If you want one, you can run your own copy of play.rust-lang.org; its actually pretty good.
  - ketralnis 12y ago
    I get that it's hard for compiled languages and I've learned to live without one for many of them. But "a cute toy, but absolutely not important" is way, way off the mark. When available, a REPL is a godsend and has saved me personally enormous amounts of time. Besides, there do exist compiled languages with REPLs (Haskell, Scheme, Common Lisp). Even Python has to compile the textual code into bytecode and execute that.
    - shadowmint 12y ago
      I'm happy to accept 'relatively unimportant compared to other issues with rust'. REPL is a useful learning tool, but its also a not relevant to the majority of tasks for rust. Rust is for large complex tasks. If you want a scripting language, use python.
      - Dewie 12y ago
        > If you want a scripting language, use python. You know, that's what some people's attitude is towards high-level languages and performance: 'who needs a better C? Just write the performance-critical code in C and the rest in Python or whatever'. Just sayin'. ;) (obviously people who say this aren't working on kernels and browser engines, but still.)
      - ufo 12y ago
        REPLs aren't just for learning- they are great for exploring and interactively designing programs. You are also conflating REPLs with scripting languages - the parent post already has a bunch of examples of languages suited for complex tasks that make very good use of their REPLs.
        shadowmint 12y ago
        They're really not in this case. play.rust-lang.org is a bite sized code compile \ execute environment that lets you play, explore, delect different compilers and share failed build to get help. Its fantastically useful ... but its not a REPL, and being one would in no way make it more useful. REPLs are useful where a few lines can make a meaningful program. That is not the case in rust.
        tormeh 12y ago
        I use the REPL to try out syntax I don't quite remember and to ascertain myself of how the libraries work, something that I have to do often. It's not an absolute necessity, but it makes coding a lot faster.
- ufo 12y ago
  On the other hand, if you want to do something else in addition to a prime sieve than some sensible advice on tooling can save a lot of grief down the road. A couple of years ago I decided to learn Ocaml but never progressed much farther than writing a couple of Project Euler problems. Recently I decided to relearn Ocaml with the Real World Ocaml[1] book and, in retrospect, one of my favorite things about the book is their recommendations on tooling[2]. The improved REPL and the vim plugin they recommend are the sort of thing that make learning the language and its libraries much more pleasant but are also the sort of thing I wouldn't think of installing on my own if all you told me to install was the compiler (which kind of explains why I never went very far in my previous attempt at learning the language). [1] http://realworldocaml.org/ http://realworldocaml.org/ [2] https://github.com/realworldocaml/book/wiki/Installation-Instructions https://github.com/realworldocaml/book/wiki/Installation-Ins...

by dbaupp 12y ago

tormeh 12y ago

Because beginners generally don't care about tooling, external libraries etc. They want a compiler (and preferrably a REPL) and some language pointers and then write a program that searches for primes or whatever.

shadowmint 12y ago
There are lots of tutorials; if you want to dive straight into the code look at 'rust by example'. You dont even have to install rust to use it. Also, REPL is a cute toy, but absolutely not important and hard to do for compiled languages. If you want one, you can run your own copy of play.rust-lang.org; its actually pretty good.
- ketralnis 12y ago
  I get that it's hard for compiled languages and I've learned to live without one for many of them. But "a cute toy, but absolutely not important" is way, way off the mark. When available, a REPL is a godsend and has saved me personally enormous amounts of time. Besides, there do exist compiled languages with REPLs (Haskell, Scheme, Common Lisp). Even Python has to compile the textual code into bytecode and execute that.
  - shadowmint 12y ago
    I'm happy to accept 'relatively unimportant compared to other issues with rust'. REPL is a useful learning tool, but its also a not relevant to the majority of tasks for rust. Rust is for large complex tasks. If you want a scripting language, use python.
    - Dewie 12y ago
      > If you want a scripting language, use python. You know, that's what some people's attitude is towards high-level languages and performance: 'who needs a better C? Just write the performance-critical code in C and the rest in Python or whatever'. Just sayin'. ;) (obviously people who say this aren't working on kernels and browser engines, but still.)
    - ufo 12y ago
      REPLs aren't just for learning- they are great for exploring and interactively designing programs. You are also conflating REPLs with scripting languages - the parent post already has a bunch of examples of languages suited for complex tasks that make very good use of their REPLs.
      - shadowmint 12y ago
        They're really not in this case. play.rust-lang.org is a bite sized code compile \ execute environment that lets you play, explore, delect different compilers and share failed build to get help. Its fantastically useful ... but its not a REPL, and being one would in no way make it more useful. REPLs are useful where a few lines can make a meaningful program. That is not the case in rust.
        tormeh 12y ago
        I use the REPL to try out syntax I don't quite remember and to ascertain myself of how the libraries work, something that I have to do often. It's not an absolute necessity, but it makes coding a lot faster.
ufo 12y ago
On the other hand, if you want to do something else in addition to a prime sieve than some sensible advice on tooling can save a lot of grief down the road. A couple of years ago I decided to learn Ocaml but never progressed much farther than writing a couple of Project Euler problems. Recently I decided to relearn Ocaml with the Real World Ocaml[1] book and, in retrospect, one of my favorite things about the book is their recommendations on tooling[2]. The improved REPL and the vim plugin they recommend are the sort of thing that make learning the language and its libraries much more pleasant but are also the sort of thing I wouldn't think of installing on my own if all you told me to install was the compiler (which kind of explains why I never went very far in my previous attempt at learning the language). [1] http://realworldocaml.org/ http://realworldocaml.org/ [2] https://github.com/realworldocaml/book/wiki/Installation-Instructions https://github.com/realworldocaml/book/wiki/Installation-Ins...