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Great examples. I recall back when I was grade school in Hong Kong, we learned to read and write Chinese the standard "Mandarin" way. It is like formal speak. B

Great examples. I recall back when I was grade school in Hong Kong, we learned to read and write Chinese the standard "Mandarin" way. It is like formal speak. But in everyday conversation, people speak the "Cantonese" colloquial way. It is quite weird when I think about it now how everyone speaks "Cantonese" when it's never taught in school. It's like us learning regular English in school but everyone speaks Shakespeare or something (of course it's not that dramatic of a difference). The written system in Hong Kong uses the standard "Mandarin" saying. Most serious Hong Kong newspapers (business, etc) "speak" the standard "Mandarin" way.

tokenadult 12y ago
My wife grew up speaking Taiwanese (Taiwan dialect of southern Min Chinese language) at home, and then attended school entirely in the medium of Mandarin. She says that school pupils used to be fined for speaking Taiwanese in class. The pupils responded by learning sentences that sounded like legitimate Mandarin sentences, but were actually sound-alikes for sentences that made crude insults in Taiwanese. The last time we lived in Taiwan (1998-2001), the government had relaxed its former stringent prohibitions on public use of Taiwanese, and we would see handwritten signs in Chinese characters in markets with obviously Taiwanese vocabulary and phrasing. Similarly, when I have traveled to Hong Kong, I have seen printed official signs that are quite baffling to someone who has only studied standard modern written Chinese, but are perfectly understandable to readers who know how Cantonese is written in Chinese characters.
Umofomia 12y ago
It's like us learning regular English in school but everyone speaks Shakespeare or something (of course it's not that dramatic of a difference). Actually it is a pretty dramatic difference. Cantonese and Mandarin split roughly 1000 years ago, whereas the difference between Shakespearian English (which is considered Early Modern English) and Modern English is only a few hundred years. In addition, Modern English is a descendant of Early Modern English whereas Cantonese and Mandarin are not descendants of one another. The Chinese writing system tends to obscure these differences because cognates among the different varieties of Chinese are represented using the same characters, even though their pronunciations have diverged considerably. There are vocabulary and grammatical differences as well, though they are not as big. The difference is more akin to if English speakers had to write in German†, but because they generally don't know how to actually speak German, they would read it using English pronunciation instead. For instance, if you wanted to say "I know that you said that", you might have to write: Ich weiß dass du das gesagt hast. But you would read it "in your own language" as: I wit that thou that y-said hast. This is similar to the current relationship between Cantonese and Mandarin. Cantonese speakers write in Mandarin (i.e. "Standard Chinese") and read it "in Cantonese", even though when speaking, they would really say something almost completely different. When Cantonese speakers actually write in Cantonese, Mandarin speakers generally would have difficulty reading it. † The difference between English and German actually spans more than 1000 years, but I'm not as familiar with other closer Germanic languages with which to provide a good example.
- dllthomas 12y ago
  "Cantonese and Mandarin split roughly 1000 years ago, whereas the difference between Shakespearian English (which is considered Early Modern English) and Modern English is only a few hundred years." While I think (second hand - I have no deep familiarity with either language) that your broader point holds, this particular bit is weaker than it might be read. While the split happened longer ago, there are more day-to-day attempts to communicate between native speakers of Cantonese and Mandarin than between native speakers of Modern and Shakespearean English. I could see this having an effect on the ongoing development of each language in a way that might leave them closer together than they would otherwise be. (Shakespearean English probably does have some continuing impact on Modern English, but I think we can be fairly confident that there's no influence the other way).
  - Umofomia 12y ago
    I could see this having an effect on the ongoing development of each language in a way that might leave them closer together than they would otherwise be. Yes, since Mandarin had been established as the Standard Chinese in the early 20th century, there definitely are effects that have ended up bringing Cantonese closer to Mandarin in terms of vocabulary and grammar. For instance, if I take my previous example further, if such a situation existed with English and German, the words "wit" and "thou" might have ended up being more common in spoken English, or at least considered more formal rather than archaic. Certain grammatical constructions might also end up being more common, such as the continued use of the y- prefix in past participles. I'm already stretching this analogy more that I should, but hopefully it gives a better idea of the relationship between Cantonese and Mandarin.
    - Umofomia 12y ago
      I also wanted to add a note that this effects how various Chinese speakers think of Chinese as a language. Many Mandarin speakers see Mandarin as being equal to "the Chinese language" and often think of Cantonese as being "merely a dialect" of Mandarin because Cantonese speakers appear to read and write the way they do (even though the aforementioned examples show that this is really not the case), and they are not really exposed to the more major differences that would exist if Cantonese speakers actually wrote the way they spoke. Cantonese speakers are more aware that they don't write the way they speak, but because the Chinese writing system only reflects the lexical and grammatical differences rather than the pronunciation differences (even though most of the differences are in the latter), many Cantonese speakers end up considering the written language as being a "formal" version of their language rather than a different language altogether. For this reason, many Cantonese speakers also consider Cantonese to be a dialect as well; however, they consider both Cantonese and Mandarin to be dialects of "Chinese" rather than Cantonese being a dialect of Mandarin. Linguistically speaking, because spoken Cantonese and Mandarin are generally completely unintelligible to each other, they should be considered separate languages, but the the writing system ends up obscuring these differences. There are also political implications if Cantonese were considered a separate language because of Chinese nationalism tends to see that as a slippery slope towards separatism.

tokenadult 12y ago

My wife grew up speaking Taiwanese (Taiwan dialect of southern Min Chinese language) at home, and then attended school entirely in the medium of Mandarin. She says that school pupils used to be fined for speaking Taiwanese in class. The pupils responded by learning sentences that sounded like legitimate Mandarin sentences, but were actually sound-alikes for sentences that made crude insults in Taiwanese. The last time we lived in Taiwan (1998-2001), the government had relaxed its former stringent prohibitions on public use of Taiwanese, and we would see handwritten signs in Chinese characters in markets with obviously Taiwanese vocabulary and phrasing. Similarly, when I have traveled to Hong Kong, I have seen printed official signs that are quite baffling to someone who has only studied standard modern written Chinese, but are perfectly understandable to readers who know how Cantonese is written in Chinese characters.

Umofomia 12y ago

It's like us learning regular English in school but everyone speaks Shakespeare or something (of course it's not that dramatic of a difference). Actually it is a pretty dramatic difference. Cantonese and Mandarin split roughly 1000 years ago, whereas the difference between Shakespearian English (which is considered Early Modern English) and Modern English is only a few hundred years. In addition, Modern English is a descendant of Early Modern English whereas Cantonese and Mandarin are not descendants of one another. The Chinese writing system tends to obscure these differences because cognates among the different varieties of Chinese are represented using the same characters, even though their pronunciations have diverged considerably. There are vocabulary and grammatical differences as well, though they are not as big. The difference is more akin to if English speakers had to write in German†, but because they generally don't know how to actually speak German, they would read it using English pronunciation instead. For instance, if you wanted to say "I know that you said that", you might have to write: Ich weiß dass du das gesagt hast. But you would read it "in your own language" as: I wit that thou that y-said hast. This is similar to the current relationship between Cantonese and Mandarin. Cantonese speakers write in Mandarin (i.e. "Standard Chinese") and read it "in Cantonese", even though when speaking, they would really say something almost completely different. When Cantonese speakers actually write in Cantonese, Mandarin speakers generally would have difficulty reading it. † The difference between English and German actually spans more than 1000 years, but I'm not as familiar with other closer Germanic languages with which to provide a good example.

dllthomas 12y ago
"Cantonese and Mandarin split roughly 1000 years ago, whereas the difference between Shakespearian English (which is considered Early Modern English) and Modern English is only a few hundred years." While I think (second hand - I have no deep familiarity with either language) that your broader point holds, this particular bit is weaker than it might be read. While the split happened longer ago, there are more day-to-day attempts to communicate between native speakers of Cantonese and Mandarin than between native speakers of Modern and Shakespearean English. I could see this having an effect on the ongoing development of each language in a way that might leave them closer together than they would otherwise be. (Shakespearean English probably does have some continuing impact on Modern English, but I think we can be fairly confident that there's no influence the other way).
- Umofomia 12y ago
  I could see this having an effect on the ongoing development of each language in a way that might leave them closer together than they would otherwise be. Yes, since Mandarin had been established as the Standard Chinese in the early 20th century, there definitely are effects that have ended up bringing Cantonese closer to Mandarin in terms of vocabulary and grammar. For instance, if I take my previous example further, if such a situation existed with English and German, the words "wit" and "thou" might have ended up being more common in spoken English, or at least considered more formal rather than archaic. Certain grammatical constructions might also end up being more common, such as the continued use of the y- prefix in past participles. I'm already stretching this analogy more that I should, but hopefully it gives a better idea of the relationship between Cantonese and Mandarin.
  - Umofomia 12y ago
    I also wanted to add a note that this effects how various Chinese speakers think of Chinese as a language. Many Mandarin speakers see Mandarin as being equal to "the Chinese language" and often think of Cantonese as being "merely a dialect" of Mandarin because Cantonese speakers appear to read and write the way they do (even though the aforementioned examples show that this is really not the case), and they are not really exposed to the more major differences that would exist if Cantonese speakers actually wrote the way they spoke. Cantonese speakers are more aware that they don't write the way they speak, but because the Chinese writing system only reflects the lexical and grammatical differences rather than the pronunciation differences (even though most of the differences are in the latter), many Cantonese speakers end up considering the written language as being a "formal" version of their language rather than a different language altogether. For this reason, many Cantonese speakers also consider Cantonese to be a dialect as well; however, they consider both Cantonese and Mandarin to be dialects of "Chinese" rather than Cantonese being a dialect of Mandarin. Linguistically speaking, because spoken Cantonese and Mandarin are generally completely unintelligible to each other, they should be considered separate languages, but the the writing system ends up obscuring these differences. There are also political implications if Cantonese were considered a separate language because of Chinese nationalism tends to see that as a slippery slope towards separatism.