5 ms·

> "For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings w

by yen223 12y ago

> "For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company." Even by Malaysian standards this is just ridiculous. The tech scene in Malaysia is growing - people really shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.

bdevani 12y ago
This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Sure, many companies here will ask for their signing bonus back if you quit early into this job, but this is literally garnishing one's wages.
- reduce 12y ago
  Bonded labor, as some call it, is still quite alive in many/most countries. Sad that every single employee and manager doesn't refuse to continue the practice. I can see what's making it difficult to fight it in unison in some places.
  - denzil_correa 12y ago
    It is illegal in India too. However, companies use different coercive tactics (like TCS in the article) to ensure pay up. The letter of law states that it is illegal.
- denzil_correa 12y ago
  > This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Legally, the "bond" you refer to is illegal according to Indian labor law.
  - truncate 12y ago
    I've heard the same. However I see many companies making employees signing bonds openly, including big ones such as Infosys, Accenture. Is there some loophole in law?
    - denzil_correa 12y ago
      There is no legal loophole. The lawsuits in India (in majority of the cases) carry on for eternity and that's the endemic characteristic which companies exploit. That said, you yourself can try to use a legal threat as a means to turn the tides in your favor. In my personal experience, it has worked. I have made a detailed comment on the relevant laws [0]. I wouldn't prefer the legal gun option. You can show salary slips from your previous employer to show your proof of employment to your prospective employer(s) should you ever land in a bond-like situation and want to quit. Most prospective employers have no problem accepting that as a proof of employment in the previous firm. The issues arise when your "bonded" employer asks to deposit money in escrow accounts, educational certificates etc. with them. However, these are very good indicator(s) to avoid such firms. Keep in mind, that by law - it is illegal to withhold such certificates, money etc. to the vulnerability of the employee [0]. The MD of the company and the immediate manager can go to prison or have to pay fine or both for this stunt. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8546534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8546534
      - truncate 12y ago
        Thanks for reply. Can you shed some light on notice period policy by companies? Many companies have reasonable period like 2 weeks to a month, however some ask for like 2-3 months.
        denzil_correa 12y ago
        Notice period policies is a mutual decision between the employee and the employer, the law does not put in any limitations. Of course, the notice period should be reasonable and should not violate basic civil rights. Therefore, the exact duration is open to interpretation. Practically, 3 months would not seem unreasonable.
yid 12y ago
Thats a lovely sentiment. Unfortunately, commoditization of common skills is bound to hit. Things won't be as rosy after.
- yen223 12y ago
  Two things. First, software engineering skills aren't fungible commodities. It's not easily commoditized, no matter how much we want it to be. Secondly, I can confidently say that Malaysia is nowhere near suffering from too much talent.
smm2000 12y ago
Eh, happens even to the best companies in US. Microsoft employment agreement stipulates that if you quit earlier than one year, you have to pay back all relocation expenses (visas, temporary housing, etc). Easily tens of thousands of dollars.
- judk 12y ago
  How many tens? That's less than 3 months of pay for the jobs they hire into.
- cpwright 12y ago
  Relocation expenses are different, and if you're really concerned about it; you are not required to use the relocation benefits. As some supporting evidence that the relocation package is different than wages, wages are taxable and a qualified relocation expense is not.
  - smm2000 12y ago
    The end result is that you are on the hook for $10k+ if you decide to quit Microsoft - very similar to the amount charged by Indian outsourcing companies in the article. There are legitimate expenses beyond visa fees that companies incur to import foreign worker and any company will want to be compensated for them if employee quit early.
    - deegles 12y ago
      Owing 10k+ after earning a six figure salary for a year is inconvenient. Owing all the salary you were paid would be catastrophic.
- beachstartup 12y ago
  it sounds to me that the relocation money never passes through the employee's hands - microsoft probably deals with relocation vendors directly (most likely have long-standing relationships), and it is not part of your compensation. it's an expense that you may or may not choose to incur, with stipulations.

by yen223 12y ago

bdevani 12y ago

This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Sure, many companies here will ask for their signing bonus back if you quit early into this job, but this is literally garnishing one's wages.

reduce 12y ago
Bonded labor, as some call it, is still quite alive in many/most countries. Sad that every single employee and manager doesn't refuse to continue the practice. I can see what's making it difficult to fight it in unison in some places.
- denzil_correa 12y ago
  It is illegal in India too. However, companies use different coercive tactics (like TCS in the article) to ensure pay up. The letter of law states that it is illegal.
denzil_correa 12y ago
> This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Legally, the "bond" you refer to is illegal according to Indian labor law.
- truncate 12y ago
  I've heard the same. However I see many companies making employees signing bonds openly, including big ones such as Infosys, Accenture. Is there some loophole in law?
  - denzil_correa 12y ago
    There is no legal loophole. The lawsuits in India (in majority of the cases) carry on for eternity and that's the endemic characteristic which companies exploit. That said, you yourself can try to use a legal threat as a means to turn the tides in your favor. In my personal experience, it has worked. I have made a detailed comment on the relevant laws [0]. I wouldn't prefer the legal gun option. You can show salary slips from your previous employer to show your proof of employment to your prospective employer(s) should you ever land in a bond-like situation and want to quit. Most prospective employers have no problem accepting that as a proof of employment in the previous firm. The issues arise when your "bonded" employer asks to deposit money in escrow accounts, educational certificates etc. with them. However, these are very good indicator(s) to avoid such firms. Keep in mind, that by law - it is illegal to withhold such certificates, money etc. to the vulnerability of the employee [0]. The MD of the company and the immediate manager can go to prison or have to pay fine or both for this stunt. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8546534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8546534
    - truncate 12y ago
      Thanks for reply. Can you shed some light on notice period policy by companies? Many companies have reasonable period like 2 weeks to a month, however some ask for like 2-3 months.
      - denzil_correa 12y ago
        Notice period policies is a mutual decision between the employee and the employer, the law does not put in any limitations. Of course, the notice period should be reasonable and should not violate basic civil rights. Therefore, the exact duration is open to interpretation. Practically, 3 months would not seem unreasonable.

yid 12y ago

Thats a lovely sentiment. Unfortunately, commoditization of common skills is bound to hit. Things won't be as rosy after.

yen223 12y ago
Two things. First, software engineering skills aren't fungible commodities. It's not easily commoditized, no matter how much we want it to be. Secondly, I can confidently say that Malaysia is nowhere near suffering from too much talent.

smm2000 12y ago

Eh, happens even to the best companies in US. Microsoft employment agreement stipulates that if you quit earlier than one year, you have to pay back all relocation expenses (visas, temporary housing, etc). Easily tens of thousands of dollars.

judk 12y ago
How many tens? That's less than 3 months of pay for the jobs they hire into.
cpwright 12y ago
Relocation expenses are different, and if you're really concerned about it; you are not required to use the relocation benefits. As some supporting evidence that the relocation package is different than wages, wages are taxable and a qualified relocation expense is not.
- smm2000 12y ago
  The end result is that you are on the hook for $10k+ if you decide to quit Microsoft - very similar to the amount charged by Indian outsourcing companies in the article. There are legitimate expenses beyond visa fees that companies incur to import foreign worker and any company will want to be compensated for them if employee quit early.
  - deegles 12y ago
    Owing 10k+ after earning a six figure salary for a year is inconvenient. Owing all the salary you were paid would be catastrophic.
beachstartup 12y ago
it sounds to me that the relocation money never passes through the employee's hands - microsoft probably deals with relocation vendors directly (most likely have long-standing relationships), and it is not part of your compensation. it's an expense that you may or may not choose to incur, with stipulations.