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Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

293 points by deepuj 12y ago

waps 12y ago
Weird is how many of the bad employers are Indians themselves (or I think so, given they're names): Krishnan Kumar, from Softech Malini Sridhar, from Compsys Technologies (found through http://appext20.dos.ny.gov/ http://appext20.dos.ny.gov/ ) Tata Consultancy Services Ltd, part of India’s Tata group Even the lawyers suing these employees : > Past president of the South Asian Bar Association of Georgia, attorney Roy Banerjee has a penchant for wearing bow ties and representing body shops. He has prevailed in many cases against Indian immigrant programmers, winning judgments or settlements from some, while others fled back to India.
- lmz 12y ago
  Why would it surprise you, given that they are the ones having local knowledge on both sides of the trade?
  - hemantv 12y ago
    These are people whose main aim is to exploit the system, and they are doing there best to game the system the best know.
- elastine 12y ago
  That's hardly surprising. Those who sold Africans into slavery were often other Africans.
- Rapzid 12y ago
  "It takes a certain kind of person" is what they say, isn't it? That kind of person exists in all cultures/countries.
selmnoo 12y ago
This bullying persists at the bottom of a complex system that supplies workers to some of America’s richest and most successful companies, such as Cisco Systems, Verizon and Apple. I find this extremely confusing, why companies like Facebook and Apple and others in SV, that're sitting on an unbelievable shitload of cash take filthy shortcuts like this, screw the very people that work for them so badly. I mean, seriously, I'm at a loss for words. Why? Why not just pay them a reasonable wage when you are more than capable enough to?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- quanticle 12y ago
  For the record, Facebook, at least, says that it does not use labor brokers: Some companies say they shun labor brokers; a Facebook official told CIR that her company does not use them. Others who rely on them renounce the abuses but are quick to deflect responsibility.
  - selmnoo 12y ago
    Facebook, Microsoft and others do end up using consulting firms like Cognizant, which generally provide them H1-B immigrant workers. The conditions of their employment, at least in my eyes, are similarly predatorial in nature.
    - us0r 12y ago
      So does the government. I'd say the bulk of IT consulting funds goes to these firms.
    - pbiggar 12y ago
      Can you provide a reference about Facebook using Cognizant? I can't find one in my search.
- rtpg 12y ago
  There's some saying about rich people being cheap is what made them rich in the first place, but I'm not super convinced this carries over into business. It is extremely frustrating that a lot of tech companies have ended up like so many other companies : caring only about that dollar metric, and not considering the human aspect. So what if it costs more? At least you can feel better about yourself for not treating people as slaves. For a while I was naive enough to think that SV, being so awash with cash, would not feel the need to become filled with money-grubbers.
HaseebR7 12y ago
WOW, this is scary. I'm from India and thinking of getting my MS in CS next year. I hope i don't end up like this.
- abat 12y ago
  The companies taking advantage rely on their marks/employees being naive, so you'll be fine once you know to be careful: 1) Get direct employment with a reputable US company instead of via a contracting company. 2) Don't sign any contracts that have any penalty for quitting. You may want to hire a lawyer to review any contracts. 3) If you are in a bad contract and your employer sues you, make sure you hire a decent lawyer. The biggest victims were those that ignored the suits or tried to represent themselves and lost their cases by default.
  - umbs 12y ago
    I have been passively following this subject for past 10 years (since I graduated college). Your suggestions are all valid and with good intent. However, 'one' group of workers these labor shops exploit are in a vicious cycle and are looking for ways to escape. The following is typical scenario for this group: A student is enrolled in a university with average or poor CS program. There is no funding/scholarship or good on-campsu jobs. So, student works, often bending the laws, off-campus for more than 60 hours to pay for college. Obviously, education takes a backseat and somehow student graduates with huge debt. They struggle to find job and due to time restrictions on F1 visa, they are forced to find an employment and hence sign for these labor shops who give them employment letter (and apply for H1B visa) and securing students stay in US. So, initially, its a mutually beneficial arrangement. Once workers realize they are being exploited, the struggle to get out starts. I signed up for one of these contracting companies and they were paying me $48K when most of my fellow new graduates were making over $72K. I got out after 2.5 years, but fortunately, it was hassle free. This is a very complex web of fraud, exploitation, bending the rules, and what not. IMO, it starts with mutual agreement/need on both sides, but descends in to the scenarios the post has brought to light.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
putlake 12y ago
As bad as some of these stories are, H1-B is way better than an L1 visa. Talk about indentured servitude. With an H1-B visa, an employee can at least change jobs and find another employer to work for. All the other employer has to do is transfer the H1 sponsorship, which is a few thousand dollars in fees but no legal hassles and not much delay. So with H1, you have decent job mobility. With the L-1 visa, which is almost never discussed in the media covering immigration, there is ZERO job mobility. You can only work for the company that got you to the United States from abroad where you were working for the same company. And for Indians who are here LEGALLY, the wait for a green card can be up to 9 years. A lot of companies make their employees wait before even applying for a green card. So they get a good 10 years of indentured servitude legally here in the United Sates.
- jedmeyers 12y ago
  Some people choose L1 simply because their wife cannot work on H4 but can on L2 spouse visa.
ssiddharth 12y ago
This is disgusting on so many levels. Hopefully us Indians can now stop being so starry eyed over working abroad and see it for what it is.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  If someone is paying you an airfare you cannot currently afford, rather than already paying you enough before you leave a country that any paid flights are merely a courtesy, then be very suspicious.
- sumedh 12y ago
  You underestimate the desire to get out of India.
hemantv 12y ago
This doesn't happen very frequently in California. Its much more prevalent in other states.
ugh123 12y ago
Just an extension of the scummy tech recruiter industry we have currently.
houseofshards 12y ago
The worst part here is that H1B visas allocated to these scumbag companies end up starving genuine companies of these visas.
- shams93 12y ago
  Worse than that, it also destroys the local talent pool. Employers use visas as a club against local talent, so you go without equity, work 3 times as many hours as you're paid for and when the company is sold you're out of a job. Not to mention taking "hair cuts" so you work without pay and do without basic necessities to make someone else rich, this shit has ruined my life being a coder in Los Angeles, yes I survive but I can't even afford a computer for myself, the employers game the system until you have to go without food to make someone else rich, forget about the dream of being able to own your own computer.
  - xellisx 12y ago
    Most of the H1B's I've worked with shouldn't even be in the positions they are. Some of them migMost of the H1B's I've worked with shouldn't even be in theMost of the H1B's I've worked with shouldn't even be in the positions they are. Some of them might have a "college education" in some area of technology, but are.. ah.. Useless and waste of company money and the US economy. positions they are. Some of them might have a "college education" in some area of technology, but are.. ah.. Useless and waste of company money and the US economy.ht have a "college education" in some area of technology, but are.. ah.. Useless and waste of company money and the US economy.
  - objclxt 12y ago
    I see no evidence that H-1Bs are destroying the local talent pool in SF. I can't speak to LA myself, but from what I hear it's not doing that either. H-1Bs aren't the reason you've think you've "ruined [your] life being a coder in Los Angeles". Your profile has you down as an Android developer: I met a co-founder based in LA last week who was bemoaning the lack of good mobile app talent. I frequently get hit up from startups in LA, and I used to consult for a major firm in the OC that's vacuuming up Android devs. I can't tell you why you're having such a hard time, and I feel for you: but blaming H-1Bs isn't productive.
gxs 12y ago
When I graduated from colllege I started working at a top tech company on a contract to hire. The company was paid 50/hr fore and I was paid 20 an hour. When I asked for more, the indian-born Indian CEO of the company went apeshit on me. No real story only that almost everyone is scum. It's not just the companies. When I told the director of my org what I was getting paid she hired me full time right away at a competitive salary. And I was just lucky that she happened to like me. Other people who complained simply got let go. I sense there is something else at play here IT work isn't that hard, yet for some reason instead of increasing awareness that there is huge demand for these jobs, we fly people in from india. We pay 150 bucks an hour for them, when an eager college kid can do and would do the same job with a bit of training for a fraction of the cost. Something else is going on here.
- induscreep 12y ago
  Isn't the "something else" just money? The employer gets an employee who is afraid to ask for a raise, since that might mean losing immigration status and returning to a (not as comfortable) life in their home country. With the green card process taking a few good years, the employer has an indentured servant. Indian born CEO or American born, money is money to them. Immigration reform is essential. If someone on a temporary visa asks "for more" like you did, they might just get fired and replaced with another temporary visa worker. So, they don't end up asking for raises, which means that the labor rate is artificially depressed. If H1Bs were not tied to employers, then this would not happen. BUT this is not in the employer's interest, so I don't think this has a chance of changing.
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    >Isn't the "something else" just money? No. Frequently it is more expensive to outsource and this is well known beforehand by management. There are plenty of companies out there who choose the outsourcing/H1B route in spite of the higher cost, not out of sheer stupidity, but because they feel better able to control their workers and are willing to sacrifice margin for that. Anybody who has seen incredulously watched an outsourcing project come to fruition despite knowing that it would never end up being worth it should recognize this. It happens all the time.
torpmode 12y ago
"... spending his days at a company apartment in Norcross, Georgia. His first assignment:Wait for Softech to find him a job. After languishing for 10 weeks without work or full-time pay ..." This means free housing and paid unemployment benefit, plus the people paying you are finding you a job themselves. I'm sure there are some Americans who wouldn't mind subscribing to that service. Yes, there's a cost of not quitting before you contract's up, but for some it may be worth it, as long as they're sufficiently well informed.
- selimthegrim 12y ago
  How about, uh, 10 weeks of lost wages at market value because he could have found another job quicker?
gleenn 12y ago
I think it is terrible that companies are taking advantage of foreigners, but I also keep seeing this $20,000 number thrown around a lot. That's how much it costs for a company to apply for an H1B. The companies should not be using that to prevent people from quitting, but it is a very real, large expense to getting workers from out of the US. The flip side of the argument isn't great either. If Softcorp or whatever pays a small fortune to get someone an H1B, that person shouldn't turn around and leave immediately either. It's just really sad that this means Softcorp, etc know they can use that as a leash and treat the worker like crap. Someone tell me a solution to this problem given the H1B's cost so much. How do you prevent abuse? It seems like making the worker pay for the visa would fix it, but I have a feeling that is quite difficult as well. Also, it would be kind of crazy to have to pay a huge sum to take a job.
- winter_blue 12y ago
  There's no lease. An H1B worker can switch companies freely with little hassle. It's the L-1 visa that has a lease. Congress passed a law in 2000 called 'AC21' which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happened over and over again. Please have the sense to do some basic research before forming your opinions. Lastly the cost to the company is actually around $4-5k.
  - induscreep 12y ago
    H1B portability is a misnomer. All that happens is that the new employer applies for a new H1B for you, which is not subject to the cap. So you are just tied to the new employer. Portability here just means that you can choose which employer to be tied to. http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html
    - winter_blue 12y ago
      You do realize that "tied to" implies that you can't change jobs? But that's not the case with H-1B workers. You can switch jobs at will, and even work multiple jobs (with concurrent petitions) at the same time. Furthermore, AC21 enables you to begin working as soon as your next/future employer has filed a petition – so you don't have to wait until USCIS makes a decision. With a good employer and attorney, USCIS will generally approve the case (although I'm sure there are outliers). In practical terms, the effect of AC21 is that (for the most part) it allows you to take up any job in that is directly related to what you major. The employer has to spend a bit on the petition and on an immigration lawyer, but in our industry it's a drop in the bucket compared to what they'll be paying you annually.
saurabhnanda 12y ago
Is penalising early exit through contractual terms illegal? If not, then isn't this just a case of who has more leverage when negotiating the employment contract? That, and the fact that Indians are so desperate to go to the US that they're willing to sign any contract. PS: I'm an Indian working in India.
- induscreep 12y ago
  Penalizing early exit with loss of immigration status could be illegal...penalizing with money is probably not.
  - klipt 12y ago
    Having an employee pay visa fees for an H1-B is illegal: http://www.hackinglawpractice.com/video/h1b-employees-cannot-pay-the-fees-associated-with-their-applications.cfm http://www.hackinglawpractice.com/video/h1b-employees-cannot... Therefore if the penalty for "early exit" is there to cover the visa and legal fees, that penalty is illegal. http://blog.laborlawcenter.com/news/virginia-company-pays-17-million/ http://blog.laborlawcenter.com/news/virginia-company-pays-17... > A firm specializing in information technology has been ordered to pay nearly $1.7 million in back wages to H-1B non-immigrant workers following an investigation by the U.S. Department of Labor in a case that should sound a warning for every employer. > Investigators also found that the Virginia company charged new H-1 B workers fees for training ranging from $1.000 to $2,500. Such fees are in violation of the law.
induscreep 12y ago
Does anyone know if this situation is specific to IT/tech/computer science related companies? Does it happen to, say, petroleum engineers?
fadzlan 12y ago
Worked with one big Indian company here in Malaysia last time and I see intimidation as common means of dealing with employees. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work well here, since most of people have a lot of choices moving around. I've been pushed to accept work that has a minimum wage in a different country, despite my experience and the fact I can't possibly survive with my family there. I've had my resume jacked up multiple times when they sent my resume to the client, up to the point that I had to deny I had never put certain things on my resume. For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company. Except for the fact that the first year salary of said fresh grad are being paid in full by the Malaysian government (in exchange of hiring certain number of locals per year). Some of the trainings are subsidized by the government too. Which explained how they can force employees to take a much less pay than what they are getting in other countries, where the cost of living is higher, because they can intimidate. Malaysia job market is much smaller than India, and such tactic didn't bode well, since there are not much replacement to come by when people are quitting, and smaller market means once you had bad reputation, new hires slowed to trickle. Now, I am not generalizing all Indian companies, there bad apples around the world, but I am just sharing my experience on how intimidation come about. I just find it disgusting that such practices are being practice somewhere in the world.
- yen223 12y ago
  > "For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company." Even by Malaysian standards this is just ridiculous. The tech scene in Malaysia is growing - people really shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.
  - bdevani 12y ago
    This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Sure, many companies here will ask for their signing bonus back if you quit early into this job, but this is literally garnishing one's wages.
plicense 12y ago
I noted two things: 1. "Shackling workers to their jobs is such an entrenched business practice that it has even spread to US nationals" - such US arrogance. 2. Almost all names of people affected seem to be from the state of Tamil Nadu in India.
designml 12y ago
This actually happened to one of the people I know. That person had to go through a lot just to get out of the stranglehold of those people. Literally screwed. They were paying half of market and also not even paying it on time. Unfortunately its difficult to pursue a legal route against these people because of the cost to pay lawyers and also the fact that they do it in such a way that its borderline legal/illegal. The only thing you can do is to save other people who may fall into the same trap.
bbarn 12y ago
I think this is going to continue in some shape, even if it doesn't necessarily look like this, because these companies are going to India to pay less money, bottom line. Add in a large pool of people wanting to make the move, and someone will always be willing to do it for the types of contracts we're talking about here. As has been pointed out many times here on HN, there is no shortage of qualified dev/it talent in the US. There is a surplus of companies with bad jobs that don't want to pay market rate, and look at these brokers as risk mitigation strategies to fill the head count someone said they needed. When cutting costs is your motivation, people have a strong tendency to get hurt.
yegor256a 12y ago
Do we really need to use so many words to describe so obvious situation?..
thewarrior 12y ago
I'm working at a company in India and our bond period is upto 3 years long. Imagine that.
- Sven7 12y ago
  What happens if you break it?
  - thewarrior 12y ago
    You have to deposit money initially in a joint escrow account which they can then seize or make very difficult for you to get in case you leave.
  - denzil_correa 12y ago
    The company asks you to pay which you should NOT because it is illegal. The company however can hold you ransom to exit letter etc. which proves that you worked for the company. However, most people do not take that route. There are smart ways to avoid that coercion.
    - nrbafna 12y ago
      It is not illegal in India.
      - denzil_correa 12y ago
        Sorry but it is. You want to say that it is practiced - sure I agree but it is illegal. Bonded labor has long been abolished in India. Section 27 of the Indian Contract Act clearly says one sided contracts are void. Most contracts in these companies are one sided in nature and of the type - if you quit, then you pay X but if we fire you then we do not pay anything. The Supreme Court of India has clarified this Superintendence Company Of India ... vs Krishan Murgai on 9 May, 1980 [0]. In fact, Section 383 of the Indian Penal Code even makes the illegal to use the common coercive tactics by firms (TCS in the article) to withhold documents [1]. The tactic amounts to "extortion" and carries a punishment of 3 years of prison or fine or both [2] TL;DR - Bonds are illegal and so is the practice of withholding ANY valuable to enforce vulnerability. The latter is a criminal offense. [0] http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1186410/ http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1186410/ [1] http://indiankanoon.org/doc/262864/ http://indiankanoon.org/doc/262864/ [2] http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1944660/ http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1944660/
freshflowers 12y ago
This is neither unique for tech workers nor unique for the US. It has been happening in many professions for decades. Tech is just specifically vulnerable, because despite all evidence to the contrary (wage suppression, the huge discrepancy between reported talent shortage and actual salaries) we drank the industry kool-aid and believe we don't need no stinkin' unions and government regulation, and that we techies are part of the lucky middle class that will remain. Most of this complacency is caused by the fact that we still have pretty decent salaries compared to most other workers, but of course that is also what makes us a nice big juicy target for dubious practices.
known 12y ago
More at http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/10/29/1244255/skilled-foreign-workers-treated-as-indentured-servants http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/10/29/1244255/skilled-fore...
danmaz74 12y ago
> Contracting with labor brokers also benefits US employers. They can staff up swiftly for temporary jobs and slim down just as fast, with workers paid below-market rates. I really don't understand why H1B visas aren't tied to the worker's pay. Considering that they're intended for difficult to find specialists, it should be easy enough to weed out fake applications by tying the visa to an at least average salary for the sector.
- deskamess 12y ago
  That is one approach... but I would really like the H1 to not to be tied to an employer. Let it be open with instant portability. The only obligation is the current employer (even the original sponsor) has to report the employee assignment on the first date to the DHS. And if a company tries to put bond/restrictions on that movement (either in the US or back in the home country) penalize and remove their ability to get H1's for 5 years.
kabdib 12y ago
At a couple of companies I was at, an Indian jobs shop had somehow gotten their mitts into our HR types and we were indundated with candidates who showed up with books like "Learn Java in 12 hours" or "Windows Device Drivers for N00bs" under their arms. Very junior types, without exception. Our interview questions were fed back, and I had to change them a fair amount. Not a problem. "The guy at XYZZY will ask about hash tables, so..." and I'd ask them questions about something else, like concurrency, to very obvious consternation. Halfway through an interview, one candidate even asked when I was going to ask about hash tables. "Fine. We can talk about concurrency and hash tables." There was an undercurrent of expectation. Their handler / manager (the relationship was never really made clear) called me one day and said "We expect you to give a job to several of our people. You keep changing your questions. What is the problem?" And I would explain that I wasn't going to hire someone junior, who we would have to teach how to do engineering, for a senior wage. Eventually they stopped coming, presumably having found better pastures.
- jerrytsai 12y ago
  I had a similar experience 7 or 8 years ago, except that I was working for a small company and doing both the recruiting and the interviewing. I would screen a person by phone, and they would pass a basic screen. Then the person would come in and be completely incompetent, openly bringing a basic book in the language that he or she was expected to already know. After this happened a couple of times I got wise to the strategy. The phone screen was useless. Someone would prompt the person with the right answer. The resume and references also useless, filled with unconfirmable or suspect information. I gained a little appreciation for what HR professionals have to do and lost a bit of my naivete that people won't try to represent expertise to someone who actually has that expertise. The language was SAS.
- xxcode 12y ago
  I am not sure if your response is relevant to the article, but I felt that there is some level of superiority complex that you and many fellow humans posses (in this case, about your superior knowledge and intellect). Perhaps the biggest difference between you and someone applying for the job through the h1b visa program was that they were born in a different set of circumstances than you were. They were likely born in India whereas you were born I the United States. As a result of being born in India, they went to a local school there which didn't teach them about hash tables and concurrency. Your school did, and you had a better education. This person from India is trying to make a better life for himself despite starting at a disadvantage in life(being born in a poor country with access to lesser educational opportunities than you). You are welcome to reject him for the job(you can do so at the resume screening state, especially if they don't have the relevant skills and experience) but I think it would be useful to remember that the other person is a human, likely disadvantaged, and express some human empathy.
manishsharan 12y ago
Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. However, the H1B worker is not aware of his rights. The average H1b worker has no one to turn to for help as the people who are most vehemently against H1B have racist and xenophobic agendas. I speak from experience : while on a H1B VISA (and in middle of a unpleasant work situation), I sought help by seeking out the people behind anti-H1B VISA web pages. Not only did those people I asked for help had no assistance for me , they hounded me with hateful racist mails, phone calls and death threats. The focus of this article and sadly HNers is to punish and prosecute the companies. Not one opinion has been offered to make the lives of H1B better. So let me offer one. The US consulate can brief the H1B GRANTEE on his /her rights.Maybe include an DVD or training video on youtube along with a hotline or number of labour lawyers. Make the company sponsoring H1B agree to abide by labour laws of California or whichever state the the company is located in.
- hemantv 12y ago
  I don't fully agree with "Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie" Remember workers in H1B are suppose to be specialized and cream layer of workers. Apart from few thousand people (working in Google/FB/Microsoft), others are completely replaceable by american workers, it just that H1B people will put with lot of stuff at lot less pay than there american counterparts, hence contributing to bottom line of these body shopping companies. (TCS/HCL/Wipro) are no different. A competent person has many options regardless of visa status and nationality.
- tristor 12y ago
  > Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. I would like to disagree on this point, however I have never conducted any long-term research nor seen any conducted. My anecdotal experiences though definitely seem to indicate otherwise. I think it's first important to clarify that by me making the statement that an H1B is less qualified than the average American tech worker, I am not saying that due to their race. I think that the process is broken and exploitative, and it encourages and incentivizes companies to specifically bring in people who are under-qualified. Let's take two possible scenarios: A: Shyam excelled at the top of his class while attending school in India and managed to be accepted to receive a government scholarship to attend school overseas. With much glee he heads off to the US on his student visa to get his degree from a university there and get earlier exposure to new ideas and techniques. While there, he does an internship during the summers his sophomore and junior year with a local tech company. As graduation nears, he applies for and receives a green card, choosing to permanently reside in the US. Afterwards he begins his job search, starting with a position he is hired at with the company he interned with his junior year. B: Deepak did not do so well in school, but knows that he wants to work in the technology field because it's a good way to make money and gain social status so he can date and marry the girls he is interested in. Unfortunately, he didn't meet the requirements for an overseas scholarship, so he attends an Indian university instead. Afterwards, he goes to work for a large Indian technology firm (Infosys, Wipro, et al). During his entire professional experience to this point he and his colleagues have been slogging away doing things mostly incorrectly, but with many hours so that their clients appear to be getting a good deal. After doing this for a number of years, he realizes he's got to get out of India and this situation, so he reaches out internally and gets accepted for a staffed role through his firm. Happily heading overseas to the US he arrives in California with his shiny new H1B working at a big American tech company on behalf of the staffing firm, only to realize that he's been thrust into a position intended for somebody with 5 years of useful experience, not the 3 years of useless experience he's had. He's way under-qualified, and struggles to keep up. He tries but is just not experienced or educated enough to handle the situation well, so finds himself in the exact same slog of burning more hours to do things less efficiently to meet deadlines. I'm kind of hamming it up here, obviously, but my point is that for the most part there is absolutely no quality control from the perspective of the people who busted their ass, proved themselves, and have succeeded in their careers who are now working alongside people who are under qualified brought in under the guise of a staffing agency hiring H1Bs. Nobody has a problem working with Shyam from situation A, but they would have a problem working with Deepak from situation B. It's not an issue of xenophobia or race as you seem to make it out to be, and it's not that we don't care or empathize. But we're at work to get our jobs done and we all have goals. If you're an engineer at the top of your game working on some exciting new technology, the last thing you need is to have your project derailed by inefficiencies, bugs, or outright bad actions from someone who is not experienced or qualified enough to be involved, but through the foibles of management found themselves there anyway.
tomohawk 12y ago
I have no problem encouraging people who want to be part of our country to immigrate, particularly if they have good skills. This H1B program, though - it's just got to go.
danielweber 12y ago
The link has audio automatically playig.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
coldcode 12y ago
If we have to have these visa programs, the law should be changed to only allow the actual hiring company to contract with the worker, and under no circumstances allow any intermediary to be a go-between. Then at least there can be some kind of tracking instead of everything being hidden behind closed doors. Of course with our stupid politicians nothing will change except for the worse.
starving_coder 12y ago
The Center for Investigative Reporting did approach me since i am victim of this scam too. I chose to settle out of court sheer out of fear and lack of ideas. As per settlement terms, i am not supposed to talk about this entire episode to anyone ever. But i am still talking here on HN. Back in 2008 I paid $330/hour (10 hours in advance as a retainer) to an attorney to file a response to the legal notice i received. I also paid other damages to my employer totaling $7500. I was literally forced to sign the "binding agreement" which was part of my joining formality after i landed in SF. Had i seen this doc earlier while still in India, chances are i wouldn't have taken that flight. I spent almost a month without pay, medical insurance (in spite of working for the client) but ultimately blinked and signed that document. Its evil. And this ritual is here to stay until the feds really are interested in solving this problem.
known 12y ago
H1B should be included in http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_collar_crimes http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_collar_crimes

293 points by deepuj 12y ago

waps 12y ago

Weird is how many of the bad employers are Indians themselves (or I think so, given they're names): Krishnan Kumar, from Softech Malini Sridhar, from Compsys Technologies (found through http://appext20.dos.ny.gov/ http://appext20.dos.ny.gov/ ) Tata Consultancy Services Ltd, part of India’s Tata group Even the lawyers suing these employees : > Past president of the South Asian Bar Association of Georgia, attorney Roy Banerjee has a penchant for wearing bow ties and representing body shops. He has prevailed in many cases against Indian immigrant programmers, winning judgments or settlements from some, while others fled back to India.

lmz 12y ago
Why would it surprise you, given that they are the ones having local knowledge on both sides of the trade?
- hemantv 12y ago
  These are people whose main aim is to exploit the system, and they are doing there best to game the system the best know.
elastine 12y ago
That's hardly surprising. Those who sold Africans into slavery were often other Africans.
Rapzid 12y ago
"It takes a certain kind of person" is what they say, isn't it? That kind of person exists in all cultures/countries.

selmnoo 12y ago

This bullying persists at the bottom of a complex system that supplies workers to some of America’s richest and most successful companies, such as Cisco Systems, Verizon and Apple. I find this extremely confusing, why companies like Facebook and Apple and others in SV, that're sitting on an unbelievable shitload of cash take filthy shortcuts like this, screw the very people that work for them so badly. I mean, seriously, I'm at a loss for words. Why? Why not just pay them a reasonable wage when you are more than capable enough to?

deleted 12y ago
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quanticle 12y ago
For the record, Facebook, at least, says that it does not use labor brokers: Some companies say they shun labor brokers; a Facebook official told CIR that her company does not use them. Others who rely on them renounce the abuses but are quick to deflect responsibility.
- selmnoo 12y ago
  Facebook, Microsoft and others do end up using consulting firms like Cognizant, which generally provide them H1-B immigrant workers. The conditions of their employment, at least in my eyes, are similarly predatorial in nature.
  - us0r 12y ago
    So does the government. I'd say the bulk of IT consulting funds goes to these firms.
  - pbiggar 12y ago
    Can you provide a reference about Facebook using Cognizant? I can't find one in my search.
rtpg 12y ago
There's some saying about rich people being cheap is what made them rich in the first place, but I'm not super convinced this carries over into business. It is extremely frustrating that a lot of tech companies have ended up like so many other companies : caring only about that dollar metric, and not considering the human aspect. So what if it costs more? At least you can feel better about yourself for not treating people as slaves. For a while I was naive enough to think that SV, being so awash with cash, would not feel the need to become filled with money-grubbers.

HaseebR7 12y ago

WOW, this is scary. I'm from India and thinking of getting my MS in CS next year. I hope i don't end up like this.

abat 12y ago
The companies taking advantage rely on their marks/employees being naive, so you'll be fine once you know to be careful: 1) Get direct employment with a reputable US company instead of via a contracting company. 2) Don't sign any contracts that have any penalty for quitting. You may want to hire a lawyer to review any contracts. 3) If you are in a bad contract and your employer sues you, make sure you hire a decent lawyer. The biggest victims were those that ignored the suits or tried to represent themselves and lost their cases by default.
- umbs 12y ago
  I have been passively following this subject for past 10 years (since I graduated college). Your suggestions are all valid and with good intent. However, 'one' group of workers these labor shops exploit are in a vicious cycle and are looking for ways to escape. The following is typical scenario for this group: A student is enrolled in a university with average or poor CS program. There is no funding/scholarship or good on-campsu jobs. So, student works, often bending the laws, off-campus for more than 60 hours to pay for college. Obviously, education takes a backseat and somehow student graduates with huge debt. They struggle to find job and due to time restrictions on F1 visa, they are forced to find an employment and hence sign for these labor shops who give them employment letter (and apply for H1B visa) and securing students stay in US. So, initially, its a mutually beneficial arrangement. Once workers realize they are being exploited, the struggle to get out starts. I signed up for one of these contracting companies and they were paying me $48K when most of my fellow new graduates were making over $72K. I got out after 2.5 years, but fortunately, it was hassle free. This is a very complex web of fraud, exploitation, bending the rules, and what not. IMO, it starts with mutual agreement/need on both sides, but descends in to the scenarios the post has brought to light.
deleted 12y ago
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putlake 12y ago

As bad as some of these stories are, H1-B is way better than an L1 visa. Talk about indentured servitude. With an H1-B visa, an employee can at least change jobs and find another employer to work for. All the other employer has to do is transfer the H1 sponsorship, which is a few thousand dollars in fees but no legal hassles and not much delay. So with H1, you have decent job mobility. With the L-1 visa, which is almost never discussed in the media covering immigration, there is ZERO job mobility. You can only work for the company that got you to the United States from abroad where you were working for the same company. And for Indians who are here LEGALLY, the wait for a green card can be up to 9 years. A lot of companies make their employees wait before even applying for a green card. So they get a good 10 years of indentured servitude legally here in the United Sates.

jedmeyers 12y ago
Some people choose L1 simply because their wife cannot work on H4 but can on L2 spouse visa.

ssiddharth 12y ago

This is disgusting on so many levels. Hopefully us Indians can now stop being so starry eyed over working abroad and see it for what it is.

lotsofmangos 12y ago
If someone is paying you an airfare you cannot currently afford, rather than already paying you enough before you leave a country that any paid flights are merely a courtesy, then be very suspicious.
sumedh 12y ago
You underestimate the desire to get out of India.

hemantv 12y ago

This doesn't happen very frequently in California. Its much more prevalent in other states.

ugh123 12y ago

Just an extension of the scummy tech recruiter industry we have currently.

houseofshards 12y ago

The worst part here is that H1B visas allocated to these scumbag companies end up starving genuine companies of these visas.

shams93 12y ago
Worse than that, it also destroys the local talent pool. Employers use visas as a club against local talent, so you go without equity, work 3 times as many hours as you're paid for and when the company is sold you're out of a job. Not to mention taking "hair cuts" so you work without pay and do without basic necessities to make someone else rich, this shit has ruined my life being a coder in Los Angeles, yes I survive but I can't even afford a computer for myself, the employers game the system until you have to go without food to make someone else rich, forget about the dream of being able to own your own computer.
- xellisx 12y ago
  Most of the H1B's I've worked with shouldn't even be in the positions they are. Some of them migMost of the H1B's I've worked with shouldn't even be in theMost of the H1B's I've worked with shouldn't even be in the positions they are. Some of them might have a "college education" in some area of technology, but are.. ah.. Useless and waste of company money and the US economy. positions they are. Some of them might have a "college education" in some area of technology, but are.. ah.. Useless and waste of company money and the US economy.ht have a "college education" in some area of technology, but are.. ah.. Useless and waste of company money and the US economy.
- objclxt 12y ago
  I see no evidence that H-1Bs are destroying the local talent pool in SF. I can't speak to LA myself, but from what I hear it's not doing that either. H-1Bs aren't the reason you've think you've "ruined [your] life being a coder in Los Angeles". Your profile has you down as an Android developer: I met a co-founder based in LA last week who was bemoaning the lack of good mobile app talent. I frequently get hit up from startups in LA, and I used to consult for a major firm in the OC that's vacuuming up Android devs. I can't tell you why you're having such a hard time, and I feel for you: but blaming H-1Bs isn't productive.

gxs 12y ago

When I graduated from colllege I started working at a top tech company on a contract to hire. The company was paid 50/hr fore and I was paid 20 an hour. When I asked for more, the indian-born Indian CEO of the company went apeshit on me. No real story only that almost everyone is scum. It's not just the companies. When I told the director of my org what I was getting paid she hired me full time right away at a competitive salary. And I was just lucky that she happened to like me. Other people who complained simply got let go. I sense there is something else at play here IT work isn't that hard, yet for some reason instead of increasing awareness that there is huge demand for these jobs, we fly people in from india. We pay 150 bucks an hour for them, when an eager college kid can do and would do the same job with a bit of training for a fraction of the cost. Something else is going on here.

induscreep 12y ago
Isn't the "something else" just money? The employer gets an employee who is afraid to ask for a raise, since that might mean losing immigration status and returning to a (not as comfortable) life in their home country. With the green card process taking a few good years, the employer has an indentured servant. Indian born CEO or American born, money is money to them. Immigration reform is essential. If someone on a temporary visa asks "for more" like you did, they might just get fired and replaced with another temporary visa worker. So, they don't end up asking for raises, which means that the labor rate is artificially depressed. If H1Bs were not tied to employers, then this would not happen. BUT this is not in the employer's interest, so I don't think this has a chance of changing.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >Isn't the "something else" just money? No. Frequently it is more expensive to outsource and this is well known beforehand by management. There are plenty of companies out there who choose the outsourcing/H1B route in spite of the higher cost, not out of sheer stupidity, but because they feel better able to control their workers and are willing to sacrifice margin for that. Anybody who has seen incredulously watched an outsourcing project come to fruition despite knowing that it would never end up being worth it should recognize this. It happens all the time.

torpmode 12y ago

"... spending his days at a company apartment in Norcross, Georgia. His first assignment:Wait for Softech to find him a job. After languishing for 10 weeks without work or full-time pay ..." This means free housing and paid unemployment benefit, plus the people paying you are finding you a job themselves. I'm sure there are some Americans who wouldn't mind subscribing to that service. Yes, there's a cost of not quitting before you contract's up, but for some it may be worth it, as long as they're sufficiently well informed.

selimthegrim 12y ago
How about, uh, 10 weeks of lost wages at market value because he could have found another job quicker?

gleenn 12y ago

I think it is terrible that companies are taking advantage of foreigners, but I also keep seeing this $20,000 number thrown around a lot. That's how much it costs for a company to apply for an H1B. The companies should not be using that to prevent people from quitting, but it is a very real, large expense to getting workers from out of the US. The flip side of the argument isn't great either. If Softcorp or whatever pays a small fortune to get someone an H1B, that person shouldn't turn around and leave immediately either. It's just really sad that this means Softcorp, etc know they can use that as a leash and treat the worker like crap. Someone tell me a solution to this problem given the H1B's cost so much. How do you prevent abuse? It seems like making the worker pay for the visa would fix it, but I have a feeling that is quite difficult as well. Also, it would be kind of crazy to have to pay a huge sum to take a job.

winter_blue 12y ago
There's no lease. An H1B worker can switch companies freely with little hassle. It's the L-1 visa that has a lease. Congress passed a law in 2000 called 'AC21' which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happened over and over again. Please have the sense to do some basic research before forming your opinions. Lastly the cost to the company is actually around $4-5k.
- induscreep 12y ago
  H1B portability is a misnomer. All that happens is that the new employer applies for a new H1B for you, which is not subject to the cap. So you are just tied to the new employer. Portability here just means that you can choose which employer to be tied to. http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html
  - winter_blue 12y ago
    You do realize that "tied to" implies that you can't change jobs? But that's not the case with H-1B workers. You can switch jobs at will, and even work multiple jobs (with concurrent petitions) at the same time. Furthermore, AC21 enables you to begin working as soon as your next/future employer has filed a petition – so you don't have to wait until USCIS makes a decision. With a good employer and attorney, USCIS will generally approve the case (although I'm sure there are outliers). In practical terms, the effect of AC21 is that (for the most part) it allows you to take up any job in that is directly related to what you major. The employer has to spend a bit on the petition and on an immigration lawyer, but in our industry it's a drop in the bucket compared to what they'll be paying you annually.

saurabhnanda 12y ago

Is penalising early exit through contractual terms illegal? If not, then isn't this just a case of who has more leverage when negotiating the employment contract? That, and the fact that Indians are so desperate to go to the US that they're willing to sign any contract. PS: I'm an Indian working in India.

induscreep 12y ago
Penalizing early exit with loss of immigration status could be illegal...penalizing with money is probably not.
- klipt 12y ago
  Having an employee pay visa fees for an H1-B is illegal: http://www.hackinglawpractice.com/video/h1b-employees-cannot-pay-the-fees-associated-with-their-applications.cfm http://www.hackinglawpractice.com/video/h1b-employees-cannot... Therefore if the penalty for "early exit" is there to cover the visa and legal fees, that penalty is illegal. http://blog.laborlawcenter.com/news/virginia-company-pays-17-million/ http://blog.laborlawcenter.com/news/virginia-company-pays-17... > A firm specializing in information technology has been ordered to pay nearly $1.7 million in back wages to H-1B non-immigrant workers following an investigation by the U.S. Department of Labor in a case that should sound a warning for every employer. > Investigators also found that the Virginia company charged new H-1 B workers fees for training ranging from $1.000 to $2,500. Such fees are in violation of the law.

induscreep 12y ago

Does anyone know if this situation is specific to IT/tech/computer science related companies? Does it happen to, say, petroleum engineers?

fadzlan 12y ago

Worked with one big Indian company here in Malaysia last time and I see intimidation as common means of dealing with employees. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work well here, since most of people have a lot of choices moving around. I've been pushed to accept work that has a minimum wage in a different country, despite my experience and the fact I can't possibly survive with my family there. I've had my resume jacked up multiple times when they sent my resume to the client, up to the point that I had to deny I had never put certain things on my resume. For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company. Except for the fact that the first year salary of said fresh grad are being paid in full by the Malaysian government (in exchange of hiring certain number of locals per year). Some of the trainings are subsidized by the government too. Which explained how they can force employees to take a much less pay than what they are getting in other countries, where the cost of living is higher, because they can intimidate. Malaysia job market is much smaller than India, and such tactic didn't bode well, since there are not much replacement to come by when people are quitting, and smaller market means once you had bad reputation, new hires slowed to trickle. Now, I am not generalizing all Indian companies, there bad apples around the world, but I am just sharing my experience on how intimidation come about. I just find it disgusting that such practices are being practice somewhere in the world.

yen223 12y ago
> "For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company." Even by Malaysian standards this is just ridiculous. The tech scene in Malaysia is growing - people really shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.
- bdevani 12y ago
  This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Sure, many companies here will ask for their signing bonus back if you quit early into this job, but this is literally garnishing one's wages.

plicense 12y ago

I noted two things: 1. "Shackling workers to their jobs is such an entrenched business practice that it has even spread to US nationals" - such US arrogance. 2. Almost all names of people affected seem to be from the state of Tamil Nadu in India.

designml 12y ago

This actually happened to one of the people I know. That person had to go through a lot just to get out of the stranglehold of those people. Literally screwed. They were paying half of market and also not even paying it on time. Unfortunately its difficult to pursue a legal route against these people because of the cost to pay lawyers and also the fact that they do it in such a way that its borderline legal/illegal. The only thing you can do is to save other people who may fall into the same trap.

bbarn 12y ago

I think this is going to continue in some shape, even if it doesn't necessarily look like this, because these companies are going to India to pay less money, bottom line. Add in a large pool of people wanting to make the move, and someone will always be willing to do it for the types of contracts we're talking about here. As has been pointed out many times here on HN, there is no shortage of qualified dev/it talent in the US. There is a surplus of companies with bad jobs that don't want to pay market rate, and look at these brokers as risk mitigation strategies to fill the head count someone said they needed. When cutting costs is your motivation, people have a strong tendency to get hurt.

yegor256a 12y ago

Do we really need to use so many words to describe so obvious situation?..

thewarrior 12y ago

I'm working at a company in India and our bond period is upto 3 years long. Imagine that.

Sven7 12y ago
What happens if you break it?
- thewarrior 12y ago
  You have to deposit money initially in a joint escrow account which they can then seize or make very difficult for you to get in case you leave.
- denzil_correa 12y ago
  The company asks you to pay which you should NOT because it is illegal. The company however can hold you ransom to exit letter etc. which proves that you worked for the company. However, most people do not take that route. There are smart ways to avoid that coercion.
  - nrbafna 12y ago
    It is not illegal in India.
    - denzil_correa 12y ago
      Sorry but it is. You want to say that it is practiced - sure I agree but it is illegal. Bonded labor has long been abolished in India. Section 27 of the Indian Contract Act clearly says one sided contracts are void. Most contracts in these companies are one sided in nature and of the type - if you quit, then you pay X but if we fire you then we do not pay anything. The Supreme Court of India has clarified this Superintendence Company Of India ... vs Krishan Murgai on 9 May, 1980 [0]. In fact, Section 383 of the Indian Penal Code even makes the illegal to use the common coercive tactics by firms (TCS in the article) to withhold documents [1]. The tactic amounts to "extortion" and carries a punishment of 3 years of prison or fine or both [2] TL;DR - Bonds are illegal and so is the practice of withholding ANY valuable to enforce vulnerability. The latter is a criminal offense. [0] http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1186410/ http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1186410/ [1] http://indiankanoon.org/doc/262864/ http://indiankanoon.org/doc/262864/ [2] http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1944660/ http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1944660/

freshflowers 12y ago

This is neither unique for tech workers nor unique for the US. It has been happening in many professions for decades. Tech is just specifically vulnerable, because despite all evidence to the contrary (wage suppression, the huge discrepancy between reported talent shortage and actual salaries) we drank the industry kool-aid and believe we don't need no stinkin' unions and government regulation, and that we techies are part of the lucky middle class that will remain. Most of this complacency is caused by the fact that we still have pretty decent salaries compared to most other workers, but of course that is also what makes us a nice big juicy target for dubious practices.

known 12y ago

More at http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/10/29/1244255/skilled-foreign-workers-treated-as-indentured-servants http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/10/29/1244255/skilled-fore...

danmaz74 12y ago

> Contracting with labor brokers also benefits US employers. They can staff up swiftly for temporary jobs and slim down just as fast, with workers paid below-market rates. I really don't understand why H1B visas aren't tied to the worker's pay. Considering that they're intended for difficult to find specialists, it should be easy enough to weed out fake applications by tying the visa to an at least average salary for the sector.

deskamess 12y ago
That is one approach... but I would really like the H1 to not to be tied to an employer. Let it be open with instant portability. The only obligation is the current employer (even the original sponsor) has to report the employee assignment on the first date to the DHS. And if a company tries to put bond/restrictions on that movement (either in the US or back in the home country) penalize and remove their ability to get H1's for 5 years.

kabdib 12y ago

At a couple of companies I was at, an Indian jobs shop had somehow gotten their mitts into our HR types and we were indundated with candidates who showed up with books like "Learn Java in 12 hours" or "Windows Device Drivers for N00bs" under their arms. Very junior types, without exception. Our interview questions were fed back, and I had to change them a fair amount. Not a problem. "The guy at XYZZY will ask about hash tables, so..." and I'd ask them questions about something else, like concurrency, to very obvious consternation. Halfway through an interview, one candidate even asked when I was going to ask about hash tables. "Fine. We can talk about concurrency and hash tables." There was an undercurrent of expectation. Their handler / manager (the relationship was never really made clear) called me one day and said "We expect you to give a job to several of our people. You keep changing your questions. What is the problem?" And I would explain that I wasn't going to hire someone junior, who we would have to teach how to do engineering, for a senior wage. Eventually they stopped coming, presumably having found better pastures.

jerrytsai 12y ago
I had a similar experience 7 or 8 years ago, except that I was working for a small company and doing both the recruiting and the interviewing. I would screen a person by phone, and they would pass a basic screen. Then the person would come in and be completely incompetent, openly bringing a basic book in the language that he or she was expected to already know. After this happened a couple of times I got wise to the strategy. The phone screen was useless. Someone would prompt the person with the right answer. The resume and references also useless, filled with unconfirmable or suspect information. I gained a little appreciation for what HR professionals have to do and lost a bit of my naivete that people won't try to represent expertise to someone who actually has that expertise. The language was SAS.
xxcode 12y ago
I am not sure if your response is relevant to the article, but I felt that there is some level of superiority complex that you and many fellow humans posses (in this case, about your superior knowledge and intellect). Perhaps the biggest difference between you and someone applying for the job through the h1b visa program was that they were born in a different set of circumstances than you were. They were likely born in India whereas you were born I the United States. As a result of being born in India, they went to a local school there which didn't teach them about hash tables and concurrency. Your school did, and you had a better education. This person from India is trying to make a better life for himself despite starting at a disadvantage in life(being born in a poor country with access to lesser educational opportunities than you). You are welcome to reject him for the job(you can do so at the resume screening state, especially if they don't have the relevant skills and experience) but I think it would be useful to remember that the other person is a human, likely disadvantaged, and express some human empathy.

manishsharan 12y ago

Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. However, the H1B worker is not aware of his rights. The average H1b worker has no one to turn to for help as the people who are most vehemently against H1B have racist and xenophobic agendas. I speak from experience : while on a H1B VISA (and in middle of a unpleasant work situation), I sought help by seeking out the people behind anti-H1B VISA web pages. Not only did those people I asked for help had no assistance for me , they hounded me with hateful racist mails, phone calls and death threats. The focus of this article and sadly HNers is to punish and prosecute the companies. Not one opinion has been offered to make the lives of H1B better. So let me offer one. The US consulate can brief the H1B GRANTEE on his /her rights.Maybe include an DVD or training video on youtube along with a hotline or number of labour lawyers. Make the company sponsoring H1B agree to abide by labour laws of California or whichever state the the company is located in.

hemantv 12y ago
I don't fully agree with "Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie" Remember workers in H1B are suppose to be specialized and cream layer of workers. Apart from few thousand people (working in Google/FB/Microsoft), others are completely replaceable by american workers, it just that H1B people will put with lot of stuff at lot less pay than there american counterparts, hence contributing to bottom line of these body shopping companies. (TCS/HCL/Wipro) are no different. A competent person has many options regardless of visa status and nationality.
tristor 12y ago
> Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. I would like to disagree on this point, however I have never conducted any long-term research nor seen any conducted. My anecdotal experiences though definitely seem to indicate otherwise. I think it's first important to clarify that by me making the statement that an H1B is less qualified than the average American tech worker, I am not saying that due to their race. I think that the process is broken and exploitative, and it encourages and incentivizes companies to specifically bring in people who are under-qualified. Let's take two possible scenarios: A: Shyam excelled at the top of his class while attending school in India and managed to be accepted to receive a government scholarship to attend school overseas. With much glee he heads off to the US on his student visa to get his degree from a university there and get earlier exposure to new ideas and techniques. While there, he does an internship during the summers his sophomore and junior year with a local tech company. As graduation nears, he applies for and receives a green card, choosing to permanently reside in the US. Afterwards he begins his job search, starting with a position he is hired at with the company he interned with his junior year. B: Deepak did not do so well in school, but knows that he wants to work in the technology field because it's a good way to make money and gain social status so he can date and marry the girls he is interested in. Unfortunately, he didn't meet the requirements for an overseas scholarship, so he attends an Indian university instead. Afterwards, he goes to work for a large Indian technology firm (Infosys, Wipro, et al). During his entire professional experience to this point he and his colleagues have been slogging away doing things mostly incorrectly, but with many hours so that their clients appear to be getting a good deal. After doing this for a number of years, he realizes he's got to get out of India and this situation, so he reaches out internally and gets accepted for a staffed role through his firm. Happily heading overseas to the US he arrives in California with his shiny new H1B working at a big American tech company on behalf of the staffing firm, only to realize that he's been thrust into a position intended for somebody with 5 years of useful experience, not the 3 years of useless experience he's had. He's way under-qualified, and struggles to keep up. He tries but is just not experienced or educated enough to handle the situation well, so finds himself in the exact same slog of burning more hours to do things less efficiently to meet deadlines. I'm kind of hamming it up here, obviously, but my point is that for the most part there is absolutely no quality control from the perspective of the people who busted their ass, proved themselves, and have succeeded in their careers who are now working alongside people who are under qualified brought in under the guise of a staffing agency hiring H1Bs. Nobody has a problem working with Shyam from situation A, but they would have a problem working with Deepak from situation B. It's not an issue of xenophobia or race as you seem to make it out to be, and it's not that we don't care or empathize. But we're at work to get our jobs done and we all have goals. If you're an engineer at the top of your game working on some exciting new technology, the last thing you need is to have your project derailed by inefficiencies, bugs, or outright bad actions from someone who is not experienced or qualified enough to be involved, but through the foibles of management found themselves there anyway.

tomohawk 12y ago

I have no problem encouraging people who want to be part of our country to immigrate, particularly if they have good skills. This H1B program, though - it's just got to go.

danielweber 12y ago

The link has audio automatically playig.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

coldcode 12y ago

If we have to have these visa programs, the law should be changed to only allow the actual hiring company to contract with the worker, and under no circumstances allow any intermediary to be a go-between. Then at least there can be some kind of tracking instead of everything being hidden behind closed doors. Of course with our stupid politicians nothing will change except for the worse.

starving_coder 12y ago

The Center for Investigative Reporting did approach me since i am victim of this scam too. I chose to settle out of court sheer out of fear and lack of ideas. As per settlement terms, i am not supposed to talk about this entire episode to anyone ever. But i am still talking here on HN. Back in 2008 I paid $330/hour (10 hours in advance as a retainer) to an attorney to file a response to the legal notice i received. I also paid other damages to my employer totaling $7500. I was literally forced to sign the "binding agreement" which was part of my joining formality after i landed in SF. Had i seen this doc earlier while still in India, chances are i wouldn't have taken that flight. I spent almost a month without pay, medical insurance (in spite of working for the client) but ultimately blinked and signed that document. Its evil. And this ritual is here to stay until the feds really are interested in solving this problem.

known 12y ago

H1B should be included in http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_collar_crimes http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_collar_crimes