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>It would be so nice if those who oppose evolution would take a tiny bit of trouble to learn the merest rudiments of what it is that they are opposing. Sigh. T

>It would be so nice if those who oppose evolution would take a tiny bit of trouble to learn the merest rudiments of what it is that they are opposing. Sigh. This depresses me more than anything else about the creationists I've met: the stubborn, aggressive, unapologetic ignorance in which they happily cloak themselves.

callmeed 17y ago
Trust me, it depresses some creationists too.
- netsp 17y ago
  Which ones?
  - jmtulloss 17y ago
    Probably those that don't deny evolution. I think they are more the "intelligent design" camp. I'm not terribly familiar with what the labels mean.
    - netsp 17y ago
      Intelligent design, as far as I understand, argues that there is (must be) a conscious and deliberate designer. It doesn't specify who. Most evolutionists think that intelligent design is a creationist conspiracy to teach creationism under a different name and re-branded as a scientific theory. It is usually presented as a conflicting theory.
      - pushingbits 17y ago
        I'd say it's more like cognitive dissonance on the part of educated creationists. They have to reconcile the fact that they live in the modern world with the fact that they believe in something that has no place in it.
        netsp 17y ago
        I don't see a flood of educated creationists embracing intelligent design in its common forms.
        pushingbits 17y ago
        No? In my experience intelligent design proponents tend to be better educated than plain old creationists. Moreover in environments where most people embrace science, you are much more likely to find an IDer than a creationist. Intelligent design makes it possible for people to keep their crufty notions without feeling like troglodytes. But since it really is just a slim veneer of jingoist science, on some level they still feel insecure about it, which is why they need official institutions to recognize it. Of course there some people who consciously use intelligent design to get creationism back into the classroom, but I don't think that the majority of people who subscribe to it are so calculating. Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by psychology.
        netsp 17y ago
        Now I'm curious. Are there any real biologists promoting this?
      - jballanc 17y ago
        More than just think, we know that it's a conspiracy, and we have the proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_document http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_document
        netsp 17y ago
        Maybe you know. I suspect. Don't "we" me! Thanks for the link though.
        jballanc 17y ago
        "We" know insomuch as the Discovery Institute wrote a document setting forth Intelligent Design as a method to do an end-run around the establishment clause and get Creationism into the classroom, and then later admitted that they wrote that document. What's left to suspect?
      - tome 17y ago
        The theory may not specify the designer, but I'd be impressed if you can find me one person who supports intelligent design, who does not have a personal belief about who that designer is.
        Dobbs 17y ago
        Depends on how you define "personal belief" because Deists believe in a "Intelligent Design" (The non-conspiracy version), but have a very lose definition of what god is or isn't.
dasil003 17y ago
This also reminds me of a steady trend in politics over the last 40 years. Increased partisanship has led to more and more politicians and even supposed journalists resorting to mining sound bites and even in some cases completely fabricating attacks just to bring the other side down and prevent them from accomplishing anything. The way the talk radio hosts and other right wing extremists control large swaths of the population with blatant lies is horrifying. The really disturbing thing is the intractability of this sort of willful ignorance.
chrischen 17y ago
>It would be so nice if those who oppose evolution would take a tiny bit of trouble to learn the merest rudiments of what it is that they are opposing. Those who oppose evolution do so because they want to, not because they haven't been enlightened. People extend faith into God because they want to, not because all evidence suggests he exists. They may learn it, but they'll probably still oppose it.

callmeed 17y ago

Trust me, it depresses some creationists too.

netsp 17y ago
Which ones?
- jmtulloss 17y ago
  Probably those that don't deny evolution. I think they are more the "intelligent design" camp. I'm not terribly familiar with what the labels mean.
  - netsp 17y ago
    Intelligent design, as far as I understand, argues that there is (must be) a conscious and deliberate designer. It doesn't specify who. Most evolutionists think that intelligent design is a creationist conspiracy to teach creationism under a different name and re-branded as a scientific theory. It is usually presented as a conflicting theory.
    - pushingbits 17y ago
      I'd say it's more like cognitive dissonance on the part of educated creationists. They have to reconcile the fact that they live in the modern world with the fact that they believe in something that has no place in it.
      - netsp 17y ago
        I don't see a flood of educated creationists embracing intelligent design in its common forms.
        pushingbits 17y ago
        No? In my experience intelligent design proponents tend to be better educated than plain old creationists. Moreover in environments where most people embrace science, you are much more likely to find an IDer than a creationist. Intelligent design makes it possible for people to keep their crufty notions without feeling like troglodytes. But since it really is just a slim veneer of jingoist science, on some level they still feel insecure about it, which is why they need official institutions to recognize it. Of course there some people who consciously use intelligent design to get creationism back into the classroom, but I don't think that the majority of people who subscribe to it are so calculating. Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by psychology.
        netsp 17y ago
        Now I'm curious. Are there any real biologists promoting this?
    - jballanc 17y ago
      More than just think, we know that it's a conspiracy, and we have the proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_document http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_document
      - netsp 17y ago
        Maybe you know. I suspect. Don't "we" me! Thanks for the link though.
        jballanc 17y ago
        "We" know insomuch as the Discovery Institute wrote a document setting forth Intelligent Design as a method to do an end-run around the establishment clause and get Creationism into the classroom, and then later admitted that they wrote that document. What's left to suspect?
    - tome 17y ago
      The theory may not specify the designer, but I'd be impressed if you can find me one person who supports intelligent design, who does not have a personal belief about who that designer is.
      - Dobbs 17y ago
        Depends on how you define "personal belief" because Deists believe in a "Intelligent Design" (The non-conspiracy version), but have a very lose definition of what god is or isn't.

dasil003 17y ago

This also reminds me of a steady trend in politics over the last 40 years. Increased partisanship has led to more and more politicians and even supposed journalists resorting to mining sound bites and even in some cases completely fabricating attacks just to bring the other side down and prevent them from accomplishing anything. The way the talk radio hosts and other right wing extremists control large swaths of the population with blatant lies is horrifying. The really disturbing thing is the intractability of this sort of willful ignorance.

chrischen 17y ago

>It would be so nice if those who oppose evolution would take a tiny bit of trouble to learn the merest rudiments of what it is that they are opposing. Those who oppose evolution do so because they want to, not because they haven't been enlightened. People extend faith into God because they want to, not because all evidence suggests he exists. They may learn it, but they'll probably still oppose it.