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Ask HN: How to address female coworkers getting paid less

• ripb 12y ago
  It is absolutely not your problem to comment on this matter. It's actually none of your business. Also, admitting that you were looking at offer letters when you should have known straight away from first glance that it was none of your business could bring some heat on you and your career that you certainly won't appreciate. Mind your own business.
  • Bootvis 12y ago
    Agreed fully. It was a bad move to look at the letter (even if it was in the open). Don't follow up with another move that's even worse. Not only will your slip-up become known but you're boss and the new hire will be be mad at you. Plus, as someone else said: unless you know what male new hires get paid now, there is no evidence of any wrongdoing. Also: maybe they get some other benefit (e.g. relocation money) you don't receive or you just negotiated better.
  • driverdan 12y ago
    This fear of sharing income information is crazy. Get over it.
    • grimtrigger 12y ago
      This information wasn't "shared" in any sense of the word
• sweettea 12y ago
  Parallel construction. Become friends with the relevant coworker, casually ask one day how much they make, and that's a great opportunity to point out that you were making more when you were that experienced so maybe they should ask for a raise. I would personally be pretty offended if you read my offer letter even accidentally, despite being very happy to tell you how much I make.
  • Fuxy 12y ago
    Can you blame someone just glimpsing at something you carelessly just leave in the open. If it's that private why would you just leave in the open like that? I never understood the problem with shearing how much you earn but apparently it's taboo so i don't share unless somebody asks.
  • stevoo 12y ago
    There could be other reasons that affected the decision for the wage for your coworker. It might be that we are in a recession at the moment and works are not that plenty ( at least where i am ). Someone might have noticed something on your CV or on the interview and did decide that you were worth a bit more. Salaries have decreased dramatically in the company that i am in. Some position as 2 years ago is 300Euro lower. But i believe the right approach for that is the one that sweettea has mentioned. Casually bringing it up.
• dominotw 12y ago
  >The pay difference is pretty small, about $1.00 Are you trolling?
  • silverlight 12y ago
    I assume he means per hour.
  • wlievens 12y ago
    $1.00 * 8 * 20 * 12 = $1920 per annum
    • easytiger 12y ago
      who in software gets paid an hourly wage?
      • folz 12y ago
        People I know at Apple are hourly.
        • gnmj 12y ago
          Is there a good reason to pay on a hourly basis?
          • SEJeff 12y ago
            overtime is normally $hourly * 1.5 or so depending on the company
      • sarciszewski 12y ago
        I do.
      • wlievens 12y ago
        No idea, I'm not even in the US, sorry.
    • 12y ago
• silverlight 12y ago
  Are there other male workers getting hired right now at the same rate you were? 2 years is a long time and it's entirely possible they changed their pay scale in that time. If there are other males being hired right now for higher pay with the same experience level then that is indeed a problem. But I wouldn't jump in without knowing as much information as possible.
• verroq 12y ago
  Just because you get paid one dollar more doesn't prove discrimination. Your need another sample from a male is newly hired as well.
• Cthulhu_ 12y ago
  It's a difficult matter, because there's often a taboo around comparing income - and whether that's a good or a bad thing is up for debate. Good because you get less jealousy (X earns Y but I don't believe s/he deserves it), bad because you can get inequality (same pay for same job / skill level, etc). I'm inclined to believe it's none of your business and it's something between HR and the new hires (there may be reasons beyond what you can see - did you have much more experience or side-projects out of college for example?), but at the same time I'd like equality or at least to sate my curiosity if I were you.
  • oneeyedpigeon 12y ago
    Ultimately, though, you should be able to eliminate jealousy because a) you pay everyone exactly what they're worth b) you don't hire irrationally jealous people :-) (oh, and c) you pay everyone a decent base so that they really don't have anything to complain about anyway)
    • philh 12y ago
      If jealousy is a common trait amongst humans, and it doesn't interfere with their ability to do their jobs, then why would you choose not to hire jealous people?
      • Karunamon 12y ago
        Probably because the second part of that sentence isn't entirely true. It's part of the reason it's generally seen as a bad idea to have "serious" relationships with coworkers. Business isn't the place for emotion.
• sirwolfgang 12y ago
  This is fundamentally one of the biggest cultural changes we have to make. You have to be ok with talking about your personal earning. In a lot of places talking about earnings is more taboo then talking about sex, and sex is generally taboo. Company culture of not talking about earnings only helps the company. It allows them to pay lowest market value for anyone, under the (often true) hopes that they don't know their value. In short talk about it, and get other people to talk about it. I would talk with your co-workers get them to open up about what they make, or have the breach subject in the conversation group while the other person can hear. Talk about what you used to make and what you make now. The key if to give everyone more context. Its important to remember that someones value as a person is not their market price. The more information a person has available, the better the choices they can make. [$47/hr, 2 years out of college, east coast]
  • sirwolfgang 12y ago
    And in response to the valuation, they could of changed their math; But in the last two years most economies have had growth, so that value to go up to adjust for growth and inflation. The only real reason I can think of that value going down is much more supply to the work force, which I know isn't that true.
  • joshyeager 12y ago
    The big reason for the taboo against talking about income is jealousy. Almost every job feels harder than it looks, and almost everyone feels more skilled at their work than they look. So if you tell someone your salary, your job probably feels more difficult to you than it looks to them, and you probably feel more productive than they think you are. If you make the same or more than they do, there is a very high risk that they will think you are overpaid. This is obviously a risk to the company, which is why most companies (at least in the US) have a policy against it. But it is also a risk to you and your relationship with that other person, which is why few people share their salary information with their friends. You are right that this is a fundamental problem for equality. But it is not an easy or safe thing to change, which means it will take a lot of time and effort. I am not saying that the status quo should remain. I'm just pointing out the reason it is difficult to change.
• mycroft-holmes 12y ago
  Is it worth bringing up the validity of "equal pay for equal work"? What if this woman isn't as experienced as someone else? If people actually support equal pay for equal work, shouldn't this apply to every job and industry? Should bench warmers in the NBA be payed the same as LeBron James?
  • noamyoungerm 12y ago
    By definition bench warmers do less work (or the same work less well), so of course they shouldn't be paid as much.
  • oneeyedpigeon 12y ago
    Really, you should be paying someone based on their position and performance rather than their experience. Of course, this is difficult to do right away. Anyway, the OP addressed this: his female coworker has exactly the same level of experience.
• oneeyedpigeon 12y ago
  caveat: I am by no means an employment lawyer, careers guidance councillor, or anyone with any relevant qualifications! I merely offer this as my own personal opinion, as someone who has been employed in a variety of organisations. I respectfully disagree with the commenter who says this "is absolutely not your problem". You are right to care about the wellbeing of your colleagues, that's one of the differences between a company (and dare I say it, a 'team') and a collection of freelancers. As far as you know, you've - inadvertently - uncovered evidence that your company discriminates according to gender, and that's a serious matter. Maybe it's not illegal, maybe the company has no real problem with it, but you do, so I feel you have every right to bring it up. What might happen as a result, of course, depends on the company culture and the opinion of your supervisor (and their supervisor, etc.) The best case is that they've made a mistake, will be very grateful to you for bringing it to their attention, and your colleagues will thank you for your intervention. In the worst case, they'll fire you for meddling where you shouldn't and, if that's illegal in your jurisdiction, you'll need to decide whether to open a claim against them - either way, that case doesn't sound like fun. Another option is to have a candid discussion about salary with one of your female colleagues. Your company might well discourage that kind of behaviour, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing illegal about it, and it's certainly not immoral IMO. If you're talking to the person you know is being paid less, they might appreciate you empowering them to deal with it however they wish, rather than fighting their battle on their behalf. Although be prepared to offer support if it's requested. After all, if it's really an insignificant amount, they might want to leave it, and you might be OK with that. Ultimately, I think you need to tread carefully, but evaluate a) what sort of company you want to work for (if they react badly to you raising this, maybe they're not worth it, if you can afford such principles) b) what sort of colleague you want to be.
  • undersuit 12y ago
    >you've - inadvertently - uncovered evidence that your company discriminates according to gender Wait you're able to divine that from one anecdote about one person? What if they are explicitly discriminating only this person(still bad but not sexism). Is it possible the company is only paying her less because of some other deal on the table? Have you ever had a company accidentally pay you the wrong amount(it's never a good sign, but it happens), have you ever made a typo? Prove me wrong and I will gladly shame this anonymous company, but OP hasn't talked with the friend and we're going off of one offer letter, not even a paystub.
• toxophile 12y ago
  It's been hinted but to make it explicit: we are in more difficult economic times than when you were hired. Maybe every new hire is getting less than back then, irrespective of gender. So, if you feel incredibly strongly about this, you as a minimum need to gather much more evidence before you can even be sure there is a problem. But you might be better just letting the people more directly concerned identify and address any problem that may exist for themselves - or are they inferior in some way that means you have to do it for them? ... and the next time someone leaves private correspondence in the open, cover it or turn it over without reading it, and tell them at your first opportunity. That way, maybe they'd pay you the same courtesy.
• philh 12y ago
  > I accidentally discovered the hourly wage that some of my newly hired female coworkers make (offer letter left in the open) When you say "some" of your female coworkers, do you mean "one"? As others have said, you can't compare without also knowing what your new male coworkers (if any) are getting paid; but one man versus one woman also wouldn't be strong evidence for anything.
  • equal_pay_q 12y ago
    Two, my supervisor mentioned that he made them the same offer when hiring them.
• tmmm 12y ago
  > that I was a couple years ago Here you go. You don't know how much they would pay you now.
  • grimtrigger 12y ago
    > our company also claims that our salaries are pretty algorithmic based on experience level It sounds like the algorithm has changed
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• orbifold 12y ago
  One sort of rational explanation for a lower wage is that females might get pregnant and need leave for that, although that probably does not justify the difference (I haven't done the calculations). That is also why insurance prices offered to females / males are often different insofar the law allows it.
  • oneeyedpigeon 12y ago
    That's an outrageous reason to discriminate against someone. A man also might take leave after their child is born. A woman might not get pregnant. Someone might be predisposed to sickness, but you still wouldn't be justified in using your crystal ball and tarot cards in order to pay them a lower wage.
    • waps 12y ago
      Don't brush your teeth for a week, drink a diet coke immediately followed by a coffee right before the interview. This will give you the appearance of someone with bad teeth (and it is really bad for your teeth. Take something for the smell. Don't make a habit out of it). Then you will know whether there is discrimination based on medical conditions or not. We all know the outcome of this. The same applies to appearing sick otherwise. I have a particularly white skin. Under the wrong light it can even appear a little gray. Interviews in sunlight go significantly better than under UV light, and I'm pretty sure it's-because they think I'll be ill soon. Management, everywhere I've ever worked was a band of old boys, playing social poker with eachother. Even the bosses I've had that were minority themselves discriminate. And they were minority only in genes, for example one was a "Turk" ... A christian, grew up in Boston. But yes he's tall and darker and has that broad face. Enjoys football. Discriminates based on religion (granted, given what muslims are doing to Christians in Turkey, I understand. Especially after him showing me some articles concerning the still existing Turkish Armenian Christians) But it's not like other bosses were different. The problem is the type of person that tends to fill middle management, nothing else. Since I've started working the main difference is that they lie about it really hard these days.
    • orbifold 12y ago
      This is a matter of statistics and risk evaluation, it is a fact that health insurance companies take the risk of pregnancy into account when calculating the insurance premium, whether you like it or not. In the same way there is a risk to the employer and in principle it is fairly easy to assign a cost to it, too. For example, assume an employee makes 40k a year and will take 3 years off during her work life, due to pregnancy (not uncommon in Europe and often with almost full compensation). Assume she works 40 years, then the cost per year is 3k, so she should actually be compensated with ~37k per year. This is the most naive calculation, if you knew statistics on how many men vs. women take paid leave because of children and so on you can of course come up with a much better cost model. If you assume that a company acts rationally there is no reason for arbitrary discrimination, but every reason to adjust wages according to possible costs. I'm sure in the case of wage inequality, this is not the main reason however.
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• furyg3 12y ago
  If the company claims that salaries are truly algorithmic and based on experience level, they should have no problem publicizing the salaries of each employee on an internal wiki. I see a lot of HR departments put a huge effort into making salaries seem fair. They standardize job titles. They link job titles to salary scales (A,B,C,D) and then have sub scales (1-15) for 'experience' (years at the company) or performance (positive performance reviews). The problem is there are always huge loopholes: "Ok, the experience scale can also count time at similar positions at other companies" Well, that sounds reasonable... "Also if you have a lot of industry connections we'll count that as experience" Um, okay... "also if management is impressed by a junior hire's capabilities we can apply that towards the experience scale" wait... and "Well Jane, you performed really well but management only allows us to give out so many exemplary performance reviews per year" what? The result is that you have a beautiful salary scale in your employee handbook and a nice basis for hand-waving (your job puts you in scale B, and you've been here three years, so that's why you're at B3!), but everyone is just paid whatever they can negotiate. It's been shown time and time again that this disadvantages women, immigrants, minorities (and probably also more introverted types).
• jonifico 12y ago
  Look, just take it easy. Just the way you are telling us right now, tell your superiors. I doesn't have to end up in an argument about sexism, just tell them you found out and you were wondering if it's intentional or not. If they do turn out to be jackasses, tell the girl and let hell break loose.
• reboog711 12y ago
  It sounds like you accidentally saw something you probably shouldn't have; I would keep my mouth shut. There are a lot of factors in any compensation plan, and salary is just one. I'd be cautious about judging too quick based only on a single factor. It is possible that the company is giving themselves negotiating room.
  • emcarey 12y ago
    always speak up, never keep your mouth shut, there are laws in place to protect against retaliation for speaking up. One of the unspoken factors in a compensation plan is that women tend to work for less (ie they typically don't negotiate for more). I am a woman, and I've learned to ask for more, but I used to just take what i was offered for face value. It is possible the company expects no one to speak up- and so it goes.
• jack-r-abbit 12y ago
  Perhaps times were different a couple years ago when you were hired. If the company is not quite as strong right now (or other reasons), they may be offering less to new employees. Generally, companies try not to reduce existing employees' pay... but do change the base starting pay of new employees. And companies usually have a bit of a salary range. $1.00 (an hour I presume) is only slightly more than $2k/yr. Perhaps these new employees did not interview quite as well... making them ever so slightly less appealing (while still being good enough to hire, obviously). There are many valid reasons why one person might be paid less than another person. There is not enough info here to point at "female" as the reason. Edit: That is not to say there is not an on going problem with women getting paid less. There is. But not every woman getting paid less than a man is getting paid less because she is a woman. It only takes a tiny variance in any of the other variables to make one person's salary different than another's. We can't blame sexism for every bad thing that happens to a woman.
• jenkstom 12y ago
  My wife had a similar issue, except the other way around. She got paid a bit more than another person (male) who graduated at the same time and had the same amount of experience. When I inquired I was told it was because she was a better negotiator and negotiated a higher salary. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for income equality opportunity. That is, on average, the same experience, education and job pay the same for both sexes, sexual orientations, races, religious and so on. But taking a single case and making a cause of it is difficult, since it is just a single case.
• dennisgorelik 12y ago
  Do nothing. It is not your place to comment on what they are getting paid, unless they are your friends. There is no problem there. Differences in individual employee productivity are likely to outweigh $1/hour difference in pay rate.